Is Eywa a fungal organism?

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

No . Eywa does not work like the human brain, and there is nowhere in the film where anyone says this. Eywa displays abilities which appear supernatural, such as foreknowledge of the future (for example in the way she chose Jake). Although Eywa has a physical component, she also has a spiritual component. In an Interview James Cameron described Eywa as an "encompassing Spirit"

That's not knowledge of the future, or a group of angtsik would have killed Quaritch the moment he landed on Pandora.
It's intelligence, but not anything special.

[ISV Venture Star]

Originally Posted by Human No More

That's not knowledge of the future, or a group of angtsik would have killed Quaritch the moment he landed on Pandora.
It's intelligence, but not anything special.

It's a bit like that in the scriptment, I guess.


What does everyone make of this as an analogy:

Eywa: superorganism.
Humans: invading pathogen.
Jake Sully/Grace Augustine: antigen.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

No . Eywa does not work like the human brain, and there is nowhere in the film where anyone says this. Eywa displays abilities which appear supernatural, such as foreknowledge of the future (for example in the way she chose Jake). Although Eywa has a physical component, she also has a spiritual component. In an Interview James Cameron described Eywa as an "encompassing Spirit"

There's nowhere it says that.
Grace describes the structure very well, and there was no demonstrable knowledge of the future - or otherwise, why not prevent the destruction of Hometree and the tree of voices? or even the RDA's arrival on Pandora? Why not just blow up the ISVs if Eywa really is some kind of mystical superbeing as you seem to think?

[auroraglacialis]

Thanks for pointing me towards this thread, ISV

I just listened to some of the talks of Paul Stamets ( Podcast Episode: Living Green: Paul Stamets, Fungal Intelligence and the 21st Psychedelic Journey - "How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World." in our "11th Hour" edition. (EveryBody Inspired to Succeed ) and I have heard some of his previous talks as well, he is also on "TED".

The deal is this - on Earth, funghi are something between plants and animals, more on the animal side. They have vast networks of connected cells underground with mushrooms as "fruit". Their networks resemble neural networks, the structure of the internet and even the structure of railway systems. Mycelia is also mobile, it can literally move towards food, consume it and move on: YouTube - Schleimpilze 1 von 4 (german language, but good pictures) . It has a pulse and chemicals are distributed throughout the network. It senses the presence of animals, reacts to the footsteps of animals by reaching up and some mycelia are bioluminescent: http://www.sfsu.edu/~sfsumag/archive.../pix/final.jpg
To say that these networks are conscious and actually act like neurons is a bit of a stretch, as they have no electrical signal transduction (you can hear Norm and Grace talking about that in respect to Pandora on their first expedition), but Paul Stamet goes that way and he is no new age guy, but a very renowned scientist. Soo - mushrooms could be Earths version of that network that harbors the Eywa-consciousness.

The similarities to Pandora are very interesting indeed. For once, Plants there have often animal properties, so the vegetation there is basically very close in their classification to what mushrooms are on Earth, but maybe leaning more towards the plants than animals. They also form a network, transmit signals and probably nutrients, much like Earths funghi. You can see bioluminescent mycelia-like veins or connections covering the planet at nighttime. You can see fine strands of something that looks like mycelium coming up to cover Grace during the ceremony. The network reacts to touch (by glowing) and in some images it looks like not all roots are participating, but rather some glowing veins cover them.

So I would not say that "Eywa is a mushroom", but that many of the vegetation on Pandora is actually biologically similar to mushrooms on Earth (I think in the Guide they are called zoophytes?). Eywa is a presence, a consciousness that resides within the network set up by these fungal-like organisms like a human consciousness resides in the network of brain cells (or at least expresses itself that way ).

Now what about Earth - can there be a "Gaia"-consciousness here? I dont think it is completely unlikely. Paul Stamet thinks so and the mycelium of all the funghi on Earth are so vast and so complex that it would have the possibility. However as we have no electric signal transduction (maybe Pandora has it because of the Unobtainoum) on Earth, communication would be slower, so if there is a consciousness, it would be a slow thinker - for it, time would run very fast and human civilization would be a stressful matter, as it is happeing very very fast: YouTube - Das Rad (funny video! German with engl. subtitles)

Interestingly, it was discovered, that electric transduction in organisms beyond animals is possible: Electrically conductive bacterial nanowires produced by Shewanella oneidensis strain MR-1 and other microorganisms

So what I think is, that this planets biosphere has the very real potential to at least become a Pandora with a consciousness. Maybe it already is, but maybe it just could become - and this makes me even sadder at the fact that the possibly first try to achieve intelligent consciousness here - human beeings - are about to diminish the chances for such a future.

Greetings, Aurora

[HeartOfGaia]

"To say that these networks are conscious and actually act like neurons is a bit of a stretch, as they have no electrical signal transduction..."

The key to having a functional organism whether it be single celled or multicellular is intercellular communication. Cells have numerous communication pathways through which they send messages to one another. Neurons are simply, specialized cells that send direct messages which can direct movement of muscular tissues, or other desired bodily effects.

What makes a 'being' concious is all of the connections neurons make in the brain. Infact, the ability of neurons to store information comes from their capacity to forge many connections between one another-like a network. Fungal cells form many miles in length with numerous connections. It is quite possible and most likely probable that fungi not only communicate, but store information through biochemical means. True, this isn't the same communication method as neurons, but that dosnt mean they don't create a sort of conciousness.

[Human No More]

Zooplantae actually, but yes.
There are certainly fungi on Pandora (remember that giant mushroom that Jake lands on? ) and those are going to be part of Eywa like all the other plant species are... But in a way, I suppose the overall structure could be seen as very similar, it's just that fungi on Earth don't have the size or biological sophistication for consciousness.

I think that a 'Gaia' is possible, but doesn't actually exist (on Earth, anyway)0. After all, as far as I understand the idea, it works in a very similar way.

As for the method of signal transduction, I don't think it is unobtainium as there is already a method of transferring electrical signals via neurons - I'd guess that the roots simply include similar structures and act as synapses.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Human No More

it's just that fungi on Earth don't have the size or biological sophistication for consciousness.

I think that a 'Gaia' is possible, but doesn't actually exist (on Earth, anyway)0. After all, as far as I understand the idea, it works in a very similar way.

As for the method of signal transduction, I don't think it is unobtainium as there is already a method of transferring electrical signals via neurons

Well - funghi on Earth are massive. Listen to some stuff from Stamets. It is amazing. There are tons and tons of biomass that is only funghi mycelium in healthy forests. It literally is what keeps it all together. Go into a forest and dig a small hole and you will find mycelium all over the place. The beauty of it is that it does not require whole trees as cells and roots as synapses, but is a rather dense network already. It has as many connections and nodes in a cube meter than a forest has trees. The biological sophistication - yes, that is a problem. The network is there, but signal transduction not so much and of course a network does not mean consciousness per se. It merely proves the basis for it.

Personally I believe, that there is a Gaia at least in the classical sense of Lovelock, who defined it as a system of regulatory circles keeping the state of the world in balance and repairing damage. This world would not exist if life itself would not have shaped it to have air with O2 and N2 and a little CO2 in it. The idea of a conscious Gaia is quite debateable of course and is more philosophical.

On signal transduction. The thing is that neurons work a different way than funghi or plant fibres. Neurons work with electric potential, which is quite fast, while the others seem to work chemically, beeing rather slow. A "brain" that is distributed over lets say some acres would not only require to be faster than what funghi seem to be able to provide, but even would have to be faster than regular neurons. At least if the processing speed shall be as fast as what our timescale demands. A signal from your foot takes some splitseconds to reach your brain - if that brain is half a mile away and the memory center of the brain is another mile away and so on - this would make Eywa or Gaia a very slow mind, thinking more in geological timescales. That is, why I think electric signal transduction maybe with metals or superconductors would benefit such a concept greatly.

[HeartOfGaia]

"Neurons work with electric potential, which is quite fast, while the others seem to work chemically, beeing rather slow."

The pathways through which neurons communicate (bio-electrically) are chemically induced and are bio-chemical in nature. If you have many groups of connections then speed dosnt necessarily matter because there are alterior routes for the signal to move through. Being intelligent and concious is about the CONNECTIONS these cells make.

[Human No More]

Superconductors wouldn't actually speed up the rate of conduction compared to one based on a biologically generated electrical potential, they would only reduce the resistance (which would actually have an effect primarily by permitting longer runs of a single connection).

[Raiden]

How did I not find this thread sooner?

Yeah, "Eywa" isn't a fungus, it's a network of plants that have somehow evolved something structurally and physiologically similar to nervous systems in animals. While fungi do belong in kingdom animalia, they do not have true nervous systems; they only mimic them structurally.

Some of the plants on Pandora actually look a little bit like Cnidarians (jellyfish, sea anenomes, coral, and hydrae). Especially the woodsprites, which are based more or less on these:



As for the unobtainium, I doubt it works with the planetary intelligence as well, since the geology had to have been around before the biology. I suppose it could learn to use it somehow to help itself, but that all depends on how smart it really is.

[HeartOfGaia]

"While fungi do belong in kingdom animalia, they do not have true nervous systems; they only mimic them structurally."

Fungi do not belong to the kingdom 'animalia.' They belong to the kingdom 'Fungi.' While they are close to animals in terms of genetics and evolution the cells as well as the life of a fungus are completely different from that of an animal.

[auroraglacialis]

Yes, HNM, the advantage of superconductors would not be a massive advantage over metal conductivity unless large distances would have to be covered, which would however be the case in a vast neuronetworks as on Pandora. More evidence would be, that hometree with its nearby tree of voices is right on top of a huge superconductor deposit and the Tree of Souls is in the midst of a big chunk of superconductor at the centre of the flux.

However, metal signal transduction (superconductor or not) is faster than chemical potential in animals. In animals, signal transduction is measured in m/s, in communications technology using copper wires, the speed is of magnitudes faster. This is also because a signal in biology has only a limited reach and needs to be transmitted through a chain of cells.

Interestingly, plants and funghi have the ability to transduct signals similarly, though the mechanism is even slower ( Action potential - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ScienceDirect - Biochimica et Biophysica Acta (BBA) - Biomembranes : “Action potentials” in NEUROSPORA CRASSA, a mycelial fungus )

"Eywa" isn't a fungus, it's a network of plants that have somehow evolved something structurally and physiologically similar to nervous systems in animals. While fungi do belong in kingdom animalia, they do not have true nervous systems; they only mimic them structurally.

Well - the grouping is not so. The distinction on Earth is plants from Opisthokonts, the latter is divides into funghi and animals. So funghi are not animals. I propose, on Pandora the distinction is different, with zooplantae taking the place of funghi in that respect, that they are "between" plants and animals. plants and funghi do have networks that are transmitting information. Of course these are on Earth NOT neurons or neurological networks the same way they are in animals. They do react however on signals and input, albeit much slower than animals. More like a mimosae (plant) that folds its leafs when one touches it. If the networks formed by funghi are able to functionally mimic neural networks is as of yet more a fantastic theory by Stamet than scientific fact, though Stamet is not a loony. He invented and researched many applications of funghi. If he thinks it is possible, I would not rule it out. But again - even if it is true, then processing is not as fast as in animals andyou will not be able to tsaheylu with a mushroom (though some people claim that eating some mushrooms gives them a similar feeling )

[ISV Venture Star]

Paul Stamets has seen Avatar! Here are his thoughts:

Since so many people have made the connection between mycelium and Avatar (and no, I have not spoken to James Cameron yet about this), I thought this quote from the Gaia.com home page, re-quoting me from Mycelium Running is apropos:

"I see the mycelium as the Earth's natural Internet, a consciousness with which we might be able to communicate. Through cross-species interfacing, we may one day exchange information with these sentient cellular networks. Because these externalized neurological nets sense any impression upon them, from footsteps to falling tree branches, they could relay enormous amounts of data regarding the movements of all organisms through the landscape."

Good ideas recommend themselves...

Paul Stamets
Source: Mycelium Running: How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World, 2005

Thanks for your positive thoughts. They keep me inspired to continue on this path. We have a planet to save, or at least a species (ourselves). Cheers !

Paul

This article is also worth a read:

Garden Rant: Does James Cameron garden?

[auroraglacialis]

Ha, great! - Where is that quote from? I love Stamets ideas since I have seen him on TED some time ago (I think it was in 2009?). Really inspiring.

I know he believes in the data processing capabilities of mycelium to a high degree, obviously beyond sensing to fallen tree branches. As you have read his book already, does he make good points towards that claim? Is it a sound scientific theory or is it merely a hypothesis of Stamets that it may be so?

[ISV Venture Star]

The quote is one of Stamets' replies to a question posted underneath his TED talk video.

Do I think such a thing might be true? No. I kind of want to, it's a beautiful idea, but you know how the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. And the evidence isn't quite extraordinary enough at the moment.