Understanding Some of the RDA's Motives (SE Scene)

[Tymian]

At first I wanted to add my opinion to this thread, but i see it pointless as everyone knows what i think about it.

and btw that mining equipment was remote controlled so none of civilian was harm.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by ScottWashburn

Human No More:

I never suggested that the Omaticaya were in any way not justified in attacking the bulldozers, I'm just saying it changes the whole feel of the thing. In the SE the attack on Hometree is just the next logical step in an escalating conflict. In the original version it comes across as unprovoked aggression.

As for using the script as a reference source, I prefer not to. If it doesn't appear in the film, then it's not canon. I feel the same way about the "Avatar: An Activist Survival Guide" book.

Just because something disagrees with your view doesn't make it non-canon.
The survival guide IS canon and there is no denying that (the few mistakes in the Na'vi language it made excepted). The script IS debatable, but it certainly proved accurate enough on the deleted scenes, so I consider it semi-canon.

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Why? I agree with Scott and X. Certain parts of a script is meaningless if it isn't in the film. Those parts are as meaningless as the '94 scriptment is. They're as meaningless as saying that Neytiri is 18 years old, when she clearly doesn't look 18, just like Jake doesn't look like he's in his 20s... as indicated by the script.

Based on what?
You have absolutely no base to judge Na'vi age and growth rates on (other than perhaps that one picture of Neytiri and Sylwanin). Anyway, Jake DOES look like he's in his 20s IMHO when he actually has hair, if maybe not at the start.

...Why are we talking about attacking Hell's Gate? They attacked the miner team because that's who destroyed the trees of voices. Hell's Gate, as far as they knew, was not involved.

I was saying that was the equivalent action, which the Na'vi did not do,so it was the humans who caused the conflict.

[quorw]...And claiming that the RDA miners are "not innocent" just because they aren't children isn't the wisest thing. I could just as easily say most of the people in the World Trade Center weren't innocent either, just because most weren't children. [/quote]
They still signed up for it. They still destroyed a Tree of voices. They still probably killed Na'vi beforehand.
There were still no families in Hell's Gate.

The RDA miners were doing their jobs as directed by the administration; they didn't have any personal vendetta against the Na'vi, or any desire to kill. Where'd you get that idea?

They still took the job to destroy someone else's world for profit. They caused many events, directly or indirectly.

Ok, first off, why are you being so hostile? And when did I ever say I was an "RDA fan"? If you ask me, you're not being much of a fair guy in this, and you're blowing things way out of proportion. You know I'm no fan of the RDA. I simply take more time (than anyone here, as a matter of fact) to point out why the RDA might've done what they did, who was guilty and who wasn't, and trying to understand. You know how hard I'm trying to make an effort not to say certain things to you when you lash out like this (which is... quite often)? How hard are you trying?

I find a difference between actually making a point about their actions (which I can do) and actually looking for a justification. Sometimes there genuinely isn't one.

Anyway, to the subject. An attack on the mining team was nevertheless a brutal one, and an unprovoked one. How many Na'vi died when the trees of voices were destroyed? None.

So you'd stand by and let somewhere YOU cared about be destroyed and do nothing, as long as nobody was hurt?
They had no right to do it, the Na'vi have every right to defend their home.

The mining team was innocent of this, considering they were simply following orders without knowing any better (and how would they?).

'I was just following orders' is used a justification for some of the worst acts in history. That does not make it alright. There is a reason that AFAIK, members of the military today are actually ordered to ignore any order that would tell them to commit a war crime.

They're just the grunts that make up the workforce. They're just doing their job. They don't know why the Na'vi are attacking, except to think they're just being savage. They are thus innocents. And the attack by the Na'vi on them was just as much a crime as the attack on Hometree. Not to say their attack on the mining team wasn't unjustified (obviously, we can see their reasons, and we sypathize). But if you look on the other side of the coin, you see a different face. And we can't simply ignore it, either, can we? We can't simply say, "They're evil, so it's ok." Because that's just not true.

You're right, I can't see that...
If you genuinely think that they are going to go "Oh, why are they attacking us?" "maybe it had something to do with that beautiful place we just destroyed and that Na'vi that tried to stop us when we nearly killed him and his mate?" "no, why would you think that would be it?"
I doubt it . It was obvious enough to them, they just didn't want to accept responsibility. Nobody does.

But... they weren't defending their home... ? They instigated the attack. They made the first move, not the RDA. Even if the RDA did destroy a sacred area, they didn't kill any Na'vi. Most importantly, they didn't kill any Na'vi on purpose.

They easily could have. Even without that, they did still destroy an extremely important location. Saying 'but nobody was killed' does not make it alright.
There could even have been other Na'vi there who never came back for all you know, and sorry, but they DID destroy part of a living, sentient organism.

Not to say they're evil (absolutely not). But the attack truly was something that was uncalled for in the RDA's perspective.

Not really.
As you said above, they even had a very small force guarding it, specifically in order to get them killed.

What's with the notion that the RDA are equivalent to the Nazis?

Nobody made that comparison except you.

No one's saying the RDA wasn't bad. They were. They did the wrong thing. But they weren't indubitably evil, either. We're just trying to put critical thinking on this issue. We're trying to be logical about this, and not just bowing down to the sacred cow that says, "All things non-Na'vi are evil. All things non-Pandora-related are of the devil."

Come on.

Again, not sure who said that either... I never said all RDA were 'evil' (I find the very concept to be flawed - it even means different things to different people - if you're really interested), but some actions simply can not be justified, assuming you consider all sentient beings as deserving of the same basic rights.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Originally Posted by Human No More

You have absolutely no base to judge Na'vi age and growth rates on 9other than perhaps that one picture of Neytiri and Sylwanin). Anyway, Jake DOES look like he's in his 20s IMHO when he actually has hair, if maybe not at the start.

That Isn't the point HNM

...And claiming that the RDA miners are "not innocent" just because they aren't children isn't the wisest thing. I could just as easily say most of the people in the World Trade Center weren't innocent either, just because most weren't children.

Originally Posted by Human No More

They still signed up for it. They still destroyed a Tree of voices. They still probably killed Na'vi beforehand.
There were still no families in Hell's Gate.

Why do you base that argument off the word probably. That negates the entire statement alltogether.

Originally Posted by Human No More

So you'd stand by and let somewhere YOU cared about be destroyed and do nothing, as long as nobody was hurt?
They had no right to do it, the Na'vi have every right to defend their home.

A couple of "sacred" trees > 6+ lives to you?!

Originally Posted by Human No More

'I was just following orders' is used a justification for some of the worst acts in history. That does not make it alright. There is a reason that AFAIK, members of the military today are actually ordered to ignore any order that would tell them to commit a war crime.

These were civilian miners, not military goons commiting war crimes at every turn

Originally Posted by Human No More

You're right, I can't see that...
If you genuinely think that they are going to go "Oh, why are they attacking us?" "maybe it had something to do with that beautiful place we just destroyed and that Na'vi that tried to stop us when we nearly killed him and his mate?" "no, why would you think that would be it?"
I doubt it . It was obvious enough to them, they just didn't want to accept responsibility. Nobody does.

How were they supposed to know any Na'vi were in there. Again, trees do not equal lives. What the Na'vi did was a war crime.

Originally Posted by Human No More

They easily could have. Even without that, they did still destroy an extremely important location. Saying 'but nobody was killed' does not make it alright.
There could even have been other Na'vi there who never came back for all you know, and sorry, but they DID destroy part of a living, sentient organism.

Again, you argue with variables...

Originally Posted by Human No More

Not really.
As you said above, they even had a very small force guarding it, specifically in order to get them killed.

What do you mean here?

Originally Posted by Human No More

Again, not sure who said that either... I never said all RDA were 'evil'.

No, but you imply (spelling?) it at every opportunity.

[Isard]

I am insulted.


That is all.








*cracks knuckles* (flee mortals)

A couple of "sacred" trees > 6+ lives to you?!

Using quotation marks infers disdain. The trees were scientifically proven to be carrying electro chemical signals in a network pattern. They are also of cultural significance to the inhabitants. This is what we call a hands off site. Because when you mess with peoples religion, they wont sit by and let it happen. ****ing with others religion WILL get them stirred up and angry. Nobody is rational when it comes to their religious ideals, you cant talk people out of what they beleive.

These were civilian miners, not military goons commiting war crimes at every turn

Engaged in illegal mining practices. (at least currently illegal, idk if they repealed human rights laws in the future.(although again I suppose that "human" rights as a title could be a loophole to exclude the Na'vi. (that needs to be changed to "sentient rights" if we ever contact intelligent life)))

What the Na'vi did was a war crime.

What warcrime are you accusing them of?



The RDA are evil. They are designed to get zero sympathy in the movie. They're so evil Dick Dastardly blanches at their very mention. (If you know what I just said, I salute you)

[Woodsprite]

Gonna have to separate...

Originally Posted by Human No More

Just because something disagrees with your view doesn't make it non-canon.

I... don't think that's what he was saying.

Originally Posted by Human No More

...The script IS debatable...

So... then why were you acting like it wasn't before?

Originally Posted by Human No More

Based on what?
You have absolutely no base to judge Na'vi age and growth rates on 9other than perhaps that one picture of Neytiri and Sylwanin). Anyway, Jake DOES look like he's in his 20s IMHO when he actually has hair, if maybe not at the start.

Well, the growth rates appear to be the same. Mo'at looks old. So does Eytukan and many of the others who look older. So given that reference, I think I can safely make an assumption on how old Neytiri looks, because Mo'at and Eytukan are obviously older than 50. Neytiri thus looks (very much) like she's about 24 or 25.

And Jake looks like he's in his 30s. And... guess what? In reality, he is. So go figure...

Originally Posted by Human No More

I was saying that was the equivalent action, which the Na'vi did not do,so it was the humans who caused the conflict.

So... destroying a sacred area is equivalent to actually murdering someone?

...I don't follow.

Originally Posted by Human No More

They still signed up for it. They still destroyed a Tree of voices. They still probably killed Na'vi beforehand.
There were still no families in Hell's Gate.

How do you know that? Maybe not families with children, but what about grown families, who've been there for 20 years?

And I think you're confusing the miners with the mercenaries...

Originally Posted by Human No More

They still took the job to destroy someone else's world for profit. They caused many events, directly or indirectly.

They're innocent as far as taking lives goes. And I don't think it went like,

Originally Posted by Frank, the miner

"Hi, I'm Frank. I signed up for my miner job on Pandora for the specific purpose of indirectly killing natives and destroying invaluable sites. My friend Mac here signed up just so he could research the science behind the moon just to know exactly what he's destroying for the administration."

Give me a break. Trudy, actually, is proof of what knowledge can do to change your opinion. The rest of the mercenaries didn't know what they were really doing, except thinking they were killing off native savages that didn't have feelings. Trudy traveled with Grace and her team all the time, and she had a knowledge base in the science being conducted on Pandora. That's why she ultimately decided, "Screw this," because she knew exactly what she was doing if she pressed that "Fire" button.

In my humble opinion, with just the knowledge of Trudy, I believe if other members of the RDA knew what was really going on, whether they be miner, mercenary, or just a plain pilot, they would've had the same reaction as Trudy, and would've stepped down. Think about it, please.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I find a difference between actually making a point about their actions (which I can do) and actually looking for a justification. Sometimes there genuinely isn't one.

And sometimes there is. I'm not looking for anything, I just see it. It's just there. You have to look at things in their perspective, not just your own.

Originally Posted by Human No More

So you'd stand by and let somewhere YOU cared about be destroyed and do nothing, as long as nobody was hurt?
They had no right to do it, the Na'vi have every right to defend their home.

...But they weren't defending their home. They were attacking out of revenge. The attack on the mining team was not an attack to defend anything. It never was. It was a vengence ploy.

They knew what they were getting into, and the destruction of the trees of voices was really just the last straw for them. It was an outrage to the Na'vi. If it happened to me, I'd be mad as hell. I'd want to do something about it... but would I go all out and pull a Michael Corleone, shooting down my enemies in hot blood? No. And neither would you... hopefully.

The Na'vi's attack was all they knew how to do. It's all they could do, and I sympathize, as I said. But that still doesn't change the fact that it was an attack that was uncalled for, and was too severe. They could have just destroyed the equipment. They could've left everyone alive. But they didn't. It's understandable, yes, but still unacceptable. Again, keep looking at it from the RDA's perspective. Don't just look at it from yours.

Originally Posted by Human No More

'I was just following orders' is used a justification for some of the worst acts in history. That does not make it alright. There is a reason that AFAIK, members of the military today are actually ordered to ignore any order that would tell them to commit a war crime.

See, that's where you're blowing things out of proportion again. I knew you'd make a comment like this, which is why I wrote the two sentences afterward:

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

They don't know why the Na'vi are attacking, except to think they're just being savage. They are thus innocents.

They had no idea what they were destroying, or what they were really doing, to know why they were being attacked. The Nazis knew what they were doing. So did the Red Army under Mao. So did the enforcers under Pol Pot. The miners didn't want to kill anyone. "I got a native doing a funky chicken, here. He's blocking my blade." If the guy was truly guilty, he would've deliberately tried to kill Jake. The only truly guilty ones are the mercenaries.



Continued in next post...

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Human No More

You're right, I can't see that...
If you genuinely think that they are going to go "Oh, why are they attacking us?" "maybe it had something to do with that beautiful place we just destroyed and that Na'vi that tried to stop us when we nearly killed him and his mate?" "no, why would you think that would be it?"
I doubt it . It was obvious enough to them, they just didn't want to accept responsibility. Nobody does.

Why would anything be obvious to a miner working on his job? He was cutting down some trees. Wow, what a difference. Why would the trees of voices be any different than the other trees they already destroyed, with no Na'vi retaliation? "Wow, these trees are pink. Whatever." That's the mindset. That's all there is.

They have no expectation of what might be out there, except the natives. There's a native blocking a blade that's cutting down a few trees. Is that supposed to mean something to him? Besides maybe scrambled Na'vi, which he doesn't want, there isn't much meaning to a native standing in front of a giant machine that will kill him if he doesn't move, except maybe to say the native is insane, or just really angry that all sense and logic has left his mind for the moment. As for "his mate"? She's just another native with him, not necessarily his mate. How do you expect the miners to know all this?

"Oh, why are they attacking us?" It's absolutely a legitimate question they'd be asking. They've cut down thousands of other trees and never encountered an attack on the scale that Tsu'tey led. What's so special about this group of trees? They wouldn't know. Please try looking at it from the other side, and not just yours.

Originally Posted by Human No More

They easily could have. Even without that, they did still destroy an extremely important location. Saying 'but nobody was killed' does not make it alright.
There could even have been other Na'vi there who never came back for all you know, and sorry, but they DID destroy part of a living, sentient organism.

Again, you're not looking at it from the RDA's perspective. You tell them about Eywa and everything else you just listed:

Originally Posted by Parker Selfridge, if interviewed by one of us

"What's 'Eywa'? Who's that? 'Living, sentient organism?' You've gotta be kidding me. The trees are sentient? Right...

How is that group of trees any different than the other trees we've destroyed? Why is this place 'extremely important'? What are you, nuts or something? We mowed some trees. Big deal. Why aren't they making a fuss about all the others? Why aren't they attacking every single mining team we have on the moon?

We take good care not to harm any natives in our mining. That's our policy, and we have stood by it since the beginning. If a native attacks us, we'll attack back. That's common sense. Don't tell us we're being 'cruel'. 'We build them a school, teach them English, but what? After how many years? The relations with the indigenous are only getting worse.' Why? Because they're interfering with our work. If they'd just accept that we're here, and we aren't trying to harm them, they'd stop. But no, they're savages.

They don't care about our efforts, they just want their trees left alone. But they've gotta wake up and realize that the trees are gonna grow back. They just won't let us do our job. They leave us alone, we'll leave them alone. If not, we will retaliate. They must understand this or they will continue to get hurt. We don't want to hurt them, but if they hurt us, we won't just sit around."

Sounds pretty harsh, but that seems like the mindset of pretty much any business man on Pandora. The miners are just there to work. The mercenaries are there to defend. However, Quaritch took things way too far. IMO, Quaritch was not a suitable choice to run the defense initiative on Pandora.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Not really.
As you said above, they even had a very small force guarding it, specifically in order to get them killed.

I don't think they were counting on being attacked with that kind of force. The guard around the dozers was protection enough from any animal that got in the way or tried to attack, and protection against any mad native that may get in the way.

If there had been a previous attack on a mining team that was as serious as the one Tsu'tey led, the guard would've been a lot larger. And they would've been guarding from enemies, not escorting the miners so that anything in the way would be killed. Why do you think the driver of the dozer stopped?

Originally Posted by Human No More

Nobody made that comparison except you.

Oh, I think from all the bad bouts I've been having with people who say they "totally hate the RDA with every bone in their body", I'd say that would be a likely comparison in their minds. Maybe not with yours...? But with others here. Trust me.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Again, not sure who said that either... I never said all RDA were 'evil' (I find the very concept to be flawed - it even means different things to different people - if you're really interested), but some actions simply can not be justified, assuming you consider all sentient beings as deserving of the same basic rights.

I was making a point. The RDA isn't evil, and I'm glad you don't think they are, either. And I agree some actions can't be justified. However, I'm merely showing how they would justify things. That's why the title of this thread is called, "Understanding Some of the RDA's Motives".

[ISV Venture Star]

I took the destruction of the Tree of Voices as a deliberate and successful attempt at provocation, the response from which provided the RDA with justification they wanted for the destruction of Hometree. RDA are the aggressors, the Na'vi are lashing out in defense.


To my mind, the individual RDA operatives destroying the Tree of Voices were neutral, pawns sacrificed by Quaritch in pursuit of a ramping up of hostilities.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by ISV Venture Star

I took the destruction of the Tree of Voices as a deliberate and successful attempt at provocation, the response from which provided the RDA with justification they wanted for the destruction of Hometree. RDA are the aggressors, the Na'vi are lashing out in defense.


To my mind, the individual RDA operatives destroying the Tree of Voices were neutral, pawns sacrificed by Quaritch in pursuit of a ramping up of hostilities.

Now that... that's a reasonable theory, but it'd only work if Selfridge had no idea it was happening.

Maybe it was all Quaritch's idea to get the Hometree job done. From one of the deleted scenes, where Quaritch has Selfridge up against the wall, it would seem that he's been manipulating him all along... which might be the case. I don't know. I'm arguing on the assumption that Selfridge was in control, and made the ultimate decisions... but you may be right. We might get more info on that in the extra 17 minutes.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

I am insulted.



What warcrime are you accusing them of?

The killing of civilians...

[Isard]

Originally Posted by X.,.Pandora.,.X

The killing of civilians...

Hmmm... Well the FCC would like a word with the RDA then. Because I do beleive that burning a native village to the ground violates more than a few Commerce laws.


Oh, and placing their workers in a clearly dangerous work environment. Pissed off natives are definitely a threat to their well being. They shouldn't be allowed to work with such a danger present. Lets hear from the miners union shall we?

[Sacred Tsahaylu]

Strictly speaking, everyone on Pandora is a civilian as they work for a corporation, not the police force or the military (anymore). But which "civilians" do you refer to? The diggers were remote controlled

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Hmmm... Well the FCC would like a word with the RDA then. Because I do beleive that burning a native village to the ground violates more than a few Commerce laws.


Oh, and placing their workers in a clearly dangerous work environment. Pissed off natives are definitely a threat to their well being. They shouldn't be allowed to work with such a danger present. Lets hear from the miners union shall we?

YEah, I'm not saying the RDA is innocent, im just pointing out that the Na'vi aren't innocent either...

[Isard]

Well, the Na'vi have no laws that they have to answer too.

So if you want to get down to lines, RDA broke many established laws, while the Na'vi, not having such laws or ever agreeing to abide by them, broke none.

[Sacred Tsahaylu]

Thinking outside the box, Aihwa... That's lawyer material

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by X.,.Pandora.,.X

A couple of "sacred" trees > 6+ lives to you?!

I'm not sure about you, but personally, I consider my home, the people and things I care about, to be more important to me than people who aren't even pure strangers, but people who are completely opposed to me. I'm sure it's the same for 99% of people, even if they don't like to admit it.

These were civilian miners, not military goons commiting war crimes at every turn

I never implied they were military... But they were still destroying the Na'vi's home without their permission or approval. the Na'vi have a right to defend their home.

How were they supposed to know any Na'vi were in there. Again, trees do not equal lives. What the Na'vi did was a war crime.

No, because an invasion force is not given such protection. Civilians are (in terms of direct attacks against them, that is).

Again, you argue with variables...

I said that it was possible, it's not known - by ANYONE. that includes the RDA.

What do you mean here?

I mean that there were only a few marines and only one (visible) ampsuit, which was not enough protection and could clearly be seen as inviting an attack.

No, but you imply (spelling?) it at every opportunity.

How do I?
I have never said such a thing. I may well have said the marines are (not specifically 'evil' because I would never use that as a description in such a way because I find the term' deeply flawed and subject to variable interpretation), as well as Selfridge and the general nature of the RDA... but I never said such a thing, directly or implied. After all, it was the presence of people like Max and Trudy, as well as the actions of the avatars, who helped.