Ways To Cope With The Depression Of The Dream Of Pandora Being Intangible.

[Sempu]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

I think it's maybe because you emphasize internalization so much, that maybe you come across as ignoring the external world a bit? You might feel freedom, joy, and excitement inside, but on the outside you might just be an everyday worker/consumer, and simply changing your mindset without making physical lifestyle changes might come across as a bit blue pillish. Though I know from other posts of yours that you are trying to buck the consumer/worker lifestyle, too, like most of us here. Maybe you could emphasize that a bit more? To show that you aren't rejecting your physical reality.

Just my theory.

I know you were talking to Caveman here but this is an interesting point. I tend to focus on the internals here because we are, after all, in a thread about internal (emotional) effects of Avatar, and it is those internal effects that bind us together.

I think also we have seen how talking about actions in the external world is where we start to draw apart, and disagree about what to do. This has been a problem for movements of all kinds. Look at, for instance, the huge rifts in the civil rights movement, even though they were all agreed that they wanted a world without prejudice. So those of us seeking bonding and commonality gravitate towards the watering hole of discussing emotional states.

But, point taken that internalization without external action is like pissing in dark pants. (Assuming that's the point you were making.) That's probably fodder for a different thread, though.

[Tsyal Makto]

Originally Posted by Sempu

I know you were talking to Caveman here but this is an interesting point. I tend to focus on the internals here because we are, after all, in a thread about internal (emotional) effects of Avatar, and it is those internal effects that bind us together.

I disagree. Yes, while many of the emotions brought up by Avatar can be dealt with internally, some do require external changes. For example, if Avatar made somebody long for adventure, or want to be free from being a worker/consumer, that would require somebody to change their lifestyle externally. Someone could try to supress these emotions, but there will likely always be a little voice in the back of their minds nagging them about that longing for adventure or a freer life. Now that I would consider taking the blue pill.

But, point taken that internalization without external action is like pissing in dark pants. (Assuming that's the point you were making.) That's probably fodder for a different thread, though.

No, that works pretty well. I mean, if all we needed to do to be happy and fulfilled was simply change our mindsets, and nothing external, then we'd probably be living in Oceania right now.

[auroraglacialis]

Well, I think external changes START with internal changes. I know some people who out of impulse and with shortsight prioritized action over thinking and this ususally does not work well in the long run. You get results fast, but soon realize that this is not what you wanted and then you try other actions and so on, some of these actions may even be harmful to others or your own future.
So I think it is quite a good idea to at least clean out the worst patches of the mess inside as a priority. This of course does not mean, one cannot also at the same time be active on the outside, but this action is inevitably less structured or directed as the momentum behind it is still forming inside and the direction still sways back and forth.

I agree with the last definition of depression here - depression is a state of emotional numbness. I had severe depressions in my life and the state one is in at that time is one of not caring. Emotional stressors are blocked out, one cannot feel happy, but one also cannot feel sad. From that comes then a melancholy that roots in the feeling of helplessness and hopelessness and the conclusion is of course to ask, why not die now if this is the state of beeing forever. Now, for me to break out of these was usually painful and it involved sadness. Basically you have to confront the sadness and dispair first befor you can access the whole spectrum of emotions again. So after beeing truely depressed, feeling utterly sad and cry your heart out and feel a strong longing and lonliness and all that is actually a good sign. It means breaking out of the numbness.
So - Avatar - when I first saw it, I felt touched, moved and I felt the sadness welling up at the destruction of hometree etc. But I was still a bit caught, also by me going there with friends. Second time I downright cried with Mo'at at the destruction of the tree and felt the horror of the war and so on, so I had strong negative emotions, but at the same time I felt a longing for Pandora and the NA'Vi for their state of beeing. Still, even thinking of Pandora made me sad, as I knew it is fiction, I cant go there, this is so sad... Of course this feeling is still there a bit, but what happened later on was, that by opening up to negative emotions, I also opened up to the positive ones. For the first time in a while I would feel surges of happiness when sitting alone at a river or in the forest. And the last time I saw Avatar I noticed the difference. I did not just cry and weep, but I also laughed out loud many times.

So baseline - and basically what I think may be the misunderstanding between HMN and caveman here: True depression is a state of emotional numbness. Feeling sad about not beeing on Pandora is a strong emotion that actually has the ability to break out of it. It opens the way to beeing more happy and positive. But of course you cannot have only positive thoughts, there is no light without darkness, so both will be present at some time - happiness and sadness. So in a sense, to keep a longing for Pandora in your heart, also with the negative emotions attached to the realization that you cant go there, is a counterbalance for feeling happy at other times. To feel both extremes of emotions means to become one again.

And not to something completely different

Originally Posted by Human No More

I see the majority of technology as neutral - it's how you use it, how you apply the knowledge gained, what you do with the ability that matters. Not what is developed.

This definitely is off topic, so I answered here: http://www.tree-of-souls.com/debate/...html#post96688

Greetings

[Sempu]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

I disagree. Yes, while many of the emotions brought up by Avatar can be dealt with internally, some do require external changes. For example, if Avatar made somebody long for adventure, or want to be free from being a worker/consumer, that would require somebody to change their lifestyle externally. Someone could try to supress these emotions, but there will likely always be a little voice in the back of their minds nagging them about that longing for adventure or a freer life. Now that I would consider taking the blue pill.

Ah, we have a confusion around the word "bind." I should have been less poetic. I meant that the internal effects, the emotions from Avatar, are what we on this forum have in common. That's what my sentence was saying.

[electrosphere11]

mhm, very true, this is what brought us all together in the first place. To know there are others out there who share the same feelings towards this beautiful universe.

[caveman]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

Feeling sad about not beeing on Pandora is a strong emotion that actually has the ability to break out of it. It opens the way to beeing more happy and positive.

That was a good post, thank you.

Avatar gave many people inspiration and lead to many life changes. It started as something sad, feeling depressed, but soon that grew into something beautiful. Many of us came here originally because we were depressed, but now we stay because we are happy. That is a beautiful thing. I'm glad I didn't ignore the emotions I had in February. I would have missed out on an incredible journey, and it's only just beginning.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by caveman

And that's when all those bottled emotions poured out. All at once. And while I couldn't get to Pandora, I was stuck in the cold of winter with a sudden rush of "you suck" and "this wasn't supposed to happen" going through my head. I became very depressed.

Exactly what happened to me. What is still there, I guess.

Interesting, I think I get more where you are coming from now. I really don't think you've ever understood my feelings on this though, especially considering some of what you've said to me before.

Over much discussion on the depression thread, I realized a few things about the depression. First, my longing for Pandora was more... spiritual than anything. It was the emotions, the sense of freedom, the feeling of excitement and joy. The reason I italicized these words (emotion, sense, feeling, joy) is because these all heavily rely on the mind and the heart. They are internal factors.

This is where we differ. For me, it is EVERY kind. 'spiritual' is not a good description, but physically, certainly, as well as just a deep feeling that this IS my home, I've never truly belonged here and I always kind of knew it, even if I never admitted it. Even before Avatar I used to think about my home, where it is, what it would be like, but I could never find it. After Avatar for the first time, it took me a while to work out what it all means, but the answer was:
I have found my home.

I realized, if I want to be happy, I need to focus on my inside. I had deep problems inside me, I needed to fix those. Avatar was an awakening, a beginning to a spiritual journey of the self. At the time, I was a lonely, scared and weak coward; I needed to become more like a Jake Sully.

Again, we differ here... I would guess it's because I still did have the strength to face it myself, to understand it and to embrace my feelings rather than hide.

So slowly, I realized that Pandora is tangible. But not in the way you would think. In this life, we may never step foot on Pandora, but we can put Pandora in our hearts. We can change ourselves to be more passionate, compassionate, loving, caring and open-minded people.

That is not Pandora.
It's the best I can do while I'm stuck here, certainly, but that in itself isn't a reason to live, to keep going on...

The whole idea behind my approach to depression is to focus on the inside. Use Avatar as a source for inspiration, a reason to be happy. Something to celebrate and share with the world. There are so many problems out there pollution, corruption, poverty, so many bad things. But they are also opportunities for people like us to bring good into the world. And we have a great source for that kind of inspiration - Avatar.

I respect you for that. In a way, I TRY to do the same. But it's not the only thing that would make me happy. It's not enough in itself.

I still long for home. Nobody can take that from me and I wouldn't want them to.

In my opinion, you still completely misunderstand 'PAD' - you focus on that ugly little word 'depression' - which is completely inaccurate as a description for the feelings Avatar awakens.

I'm happy for you that you found something that works for you, but it is not an answer. Nobody has a true answer for this.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

I agree with the last definition of depression here - depression is a state of emotional numbness.

That is not the case... I have felt both, and the numbness is far worse than depression. It brought be close to giving up, to losing everything I had gained in the months before
I doubt it's something you'd ever be able to get an insight into just from explanation unfortunately - but I truthfully wouldn't wish it on anyone. Even without emotions, it was the worst I'd felt in my life and I'm sure the worst I ever will.

So - Avatar - when I first saw it, I felt touched, moved and I felt the sadness welling up at the destruction of hometree etc. But I was still a bit caught, also by me going there with friends. Second time I downright cried with Mo'at at the destruction of the tree and felt the horror of the war and so on, so I had strong negative emotions, but at the same time I felt a longing for Pandora and the NA'Vi for their state of beeing. Still, even thinking of Pandora made me sad, as I knew it is fiction, I cant go there, this is so sad... Of course this feeling is still there a bit, but what happened later on was, that by opening up to negative emotions, I also opened up to the positive ones. For the first time in a while I would feel surges of happiness when sitting alone at a river or in the forest. And the last time I saw Avatar I noticed the difference. I did not just cry and weep, but I also laughed out loud many times.

Don't get me wrong, I can still appreciate things here. Things do still make me smile, I can still feel happy with my true friends... It's just not the best feeling, because something is still missing. I'm far happier with myself as a person now than I was before, when I didn't even know what was missing. I have true friends now, I have something that gives me meaning, I've achieved more that matters TO ME than I ever did before.

So baseline - and basically what I think may be the misunderstanding between HMN and caveman here: True depression is a state of emotional numbness.

I've felt both. What most people call 'depression' was years ago, but I managed to solve it myself. I value that independence more than I can properly explain. The numbness, that came from other people who didn't really understand, and it took me a long time to solve that and I nearly lost it, I came close to the edge several times.

Feeling sad about not beeing on Pandora is a strong emotion that actually has the ability to break out of it. It opens the way to beeing more happy and positive.

Sorry, but I find people who have convinced themselves they are happy to be one of the most depressing things in existence. Real happiness comes form coming to terms with your feelings and acting upon them for what is right for you, not suppressing things. I tried that for a LONG time. I've had enough problems and challenges, I overcame them, but I was unaware of my true feelings and as a result, something was always missing.

But of course you cannot have only positive thoughts, there is no light without darkness, so both will be present at some time - happiness and sadness. So in a sense, to keep a longing for Pandora in your heart, also with the negative emotions attached to the realization that you cant go there, is a counterbalance for feeling happy at other times. To feel both extremes of emotions means to become one again.

This is the best thing you've said in that entire post... You just need to apply that to the rest of what you say.

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Interesting, I think I get more where you are coming from now. I really don't think you've ever understood my feelings on this though, especially considering some of what you've said to me before.

Fair enough. You only can learn so much about someone from a few posts. But I think it's also fair to say you've misinterpreted some of my posts.

Originally Posted by Human No More

This is where we differ. For me, it is EVERY kind. 'spiritual' is not a good description, but physically, certainly, as well as just a deep feeling that this IS my home, I've never truly belonged here and I always kind of knew it, even if I never admitted it. Even before Avatar I used to think about my home, where it is, what it would be like, but I could never find it. After Avatar for the first time, it took me a while to work out what it all means, but the answer was:
I have found my home.

Ok. Well, could you see how my advice might appeal to someone who was depressed? And again, when I offer advice about depression, I mean depression. The restricting kind. The kind that makes you sit around all day feeling worthless. That's what the advice is intended for - not to tell people who to be or anything - just help people be comfortable with themselves so they can enjoy the emotions, not feel flustered and confused by them.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Again, we differ here... I would guess it's because I still did have the strength to face it myself, to understand it and to embrace my feelings rather than hide.

I don't see where you get these ideas about me from. I didn't hide from my feelings. If you look at the post above, you'll see two links. The first is to a page where I claimed to leave Avatarforums, thinking I could just run away from my troubles. The second link is to the post I made when I came back. Running away didn't solve anything. I had to confront these feelings, just like you or anyone else did. And when I did, I turned everything around into something liberating.

It's interesting how you mention "facing your emotions" and "embracing your feelings". It's an awful lot like what I'm proposing for others - don't run from the emotions, learn from them, let them be a guide to a new way of life.

That is not Pandora.
It's the best I can do while I'm stuck here, certainly, but that in itself isn't a reason to live, to keep going on...

Ok. Well again, could you see how this would help someone else who's considering suicide because they can't be on Pandora? It's not a reason to live, sure, those emotions are the wake of something greater.

I still long for home. Nobody can take that from me and I wouldn't want them to.

I wasn't planning on taking that away from you. I don't know where you get these assumptions from. Anyways, please keep in mind that these posts aren't necessarily directed towards you. Some of them are, usually if that's the case there will be quotes boxes. But when someone says "I'm really sad. I want to go to Pandora and my life feels meaningless.", then I'm going to encourage the idea that something good can come from the depression. So...

In my opinion, you still completely misunderstand 'PAD' - you focus on that ugly little word 'depression' - which is completely inaccurate as a description for the feelings Avatar awakens.

...I do focus on the depression in PAD. I try helping people turning the D into E (Elation). I try to help people see the good that can come from those emotions. I agree, it is an awakening, but it might not seem that way for someone who is truly depressed. In that case, all they might feel is depression, which is useless without ever getting to the E. I think we are on the same page with this, you are just misinterpreting my intentions. I don't want people to give up their emotions. I want them to build on them, embrace them, and allow them to make the person happy and motivated. Maybe our definitions aren't agreeing. But I think we share the same intention. Again, I don't know where you get some of the thoughts about me. These thoughts that I want to take away your individuality and make you a slave to society - are false. I hope we become more clear on that. I don't like debating over what's a better way to deal with emotions.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by caveman

Ok. Well again, could you see how this would help someone else who's considering suicide because they can't be on Pandora? It's not a reason to live, sure, those emotions are the wake of something greater.

Possibly, but why think about a situation that doesn't exist? (except to thse ayskxawng at CNN... )

...I do focus on the depression in PAD. I try helping people turning the D into E (Elation). I try to help people see the good that can come from those emotions. I agree, it is an awakening, but it might not seem that way for someone who is truly depressed. In that case, all they might feel is depression, which is useless without ever getting to the E. I think we are on the same page with this, you are just misinterpreting my intentions. I don't want people to give up their emotions. I want them to build on them, embrace them, and allow them to make the person happy and motivated. Maybe our definitions aren't agreeing. But I think we share the same intention. Again, I don't know where you get some of the thoughts about me. These thoughts that I want to take away your individuality and make you a slave to society - are false. I hope we become more clear on that. I don't like debating over what's a better way to deal with emotions.

Understandable I guess... I just still feel like my home is elsewhere and that will never change. I don't want it to. It doesn't mean there's nothing for me here, just that it isn't what I want from life.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Human No More

That is not the case... I have felt both, and the numbness is far worse than depression. It brought be close to giving up, to losing everything I had gained in the months before

Yes, that is very true. I have experienced all these stages in the past decades of my life in various strengths, so I pretty much know about depression. And there is that distinction of emotional numbness which is "severe depression" and sadness/melancholy which is not as "severe". From that stems the paradox that if someone is in that numbness state and gets better, he actually from the outside seems to get worse, as the less severe stage is the one that expresses itself in sadness.

Sorry, but I find people who have convinced themselves they are happy to be one of the most depressing things in existence. Real happiness comes form coming to terms with your feelings and acting upon them for what is right for you, not suppressing things.

True - it is of no use to convince yourself that you are happy. But it is also not realistic to expect a state of continous happiness. Life as it is really is a series of ups and downs, of light and darknesss. And indeed happiness comes from the ability to feel emotions, to act upon them. And that is what I meant by getting out of the emotional numbness - personally (and I have to say that probably this differs for each person) this is what changed in me - I am more "in touch" with emotions and feelings now. For me, this inevitably means also a lot of sorrow and grief, but at least it allows for happiness also.

Greetings, Aurora

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Possibly, but why think about a situation that doesn't exist? (except to thse ayskxawng at CNN... )


Understandable I guess... I just still feel like my home is elsewhere and that will never change. I don't want it to. It doesn't mean there's nothing for me here, just that it isn't what I want from life.

That situation doesn't exist with anyone here, fortunately. But there was reason to think it did, when several members posted resurgences of "PAD". Of course, that later was cleared up, and it was concluded that nobody was looking for depression, rather a new wave of more positive emotions. So really, there's no reason to discuss the matter, its just that Layzie asked for my story and well, things took off from there.

[caveman]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

True - it is of no use to convince yourself that you are happy.

I agree. I think through a series of misinterpreted posts (with perhaps myself to blame), there was a notion running around that I was trying to convince people to be happy when they are not. That is not true, and that is not the case with myself. I want people to be genuinely happy, and that means finding what makes you happy and pursuing those things.

[Tsyal Makto]

I think part of the problem is that we're maybe trying to be too poetic and eloquent, as Sempu said. There's a time and place, but sometimes it can get lost in translation.

[Sempu]

This all points up the need to be very clear about the context we're talking in. This is a thread titled "Ways to cope with the depression of the dream of Pandora being intangible," so that's the default context. That's where most of my postings have been aimed. The title isn't "Ways to perpetuate or ennoble the depression of...". Mind you, neither is it "Ways to eliminate the depression...", so there is a certain assumption in the word 'cope' that depression is permanent for those who have it. I don't agree; I look to stretch that definition of 'cope' towards 'change'.

Much discussion about it being unwise to convince yourself that you're happy. What about the other way around? Anyone ever convince themselves that they were unhappy? How'd that happen? I know I've done it.