How might Neytiri react to Tom Sully?

[Neytiri.]

Jake only succeeded because of his military training and who he is as a person. Tom was a scientist. They would have most likely never met creating no reaction what so ever.

[electrosphere11]

Well, I imagine he's alot like jake, just because he' a scientist doesn't mean he wouldn't feel the same way.

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Tom could have done it the same as Jake... He would have cared MORE about the Na'vi at first.

Neytiri was not instantly attracted to Jake, she thought he was a total skxawng at first, and it took a long time for that to change.

I didnt mean attracted as in physical or love attraction...I meant a fascination kind of attraction.

I doubt Tom could have been able to fight against the RDA he wasn't skilled in that department he was the brains, Jake was the brawns. Sure Tom may have cared more about the Na'vi in the beginnig than Jake, but I think by the end of the movie Jake would have cared more since he risked his life to fight for them.

[Layzie]

His behavior and actions probably would have been similar to that of Norm.

[Woodsprite]

...Is everyone forgetting something?

Tom's "cup is full". Sure, he would've sided with Grace and the other scientists against Quaritch, but he would've never gotten in with the Na'vi. He was already completely brainwashed on earth. Grace was the same.

No matter how much he'd love the Na'vi, he'd never be one of them because he already had preconceived ideas about them that weren't in line with how the Na'vi believed in Eywa, how they lived, their rituals and ways of life (and the sacred nature of it all), and most importantly: what Pandora meant to them. He would see it all as a big science mystery, while Jake saw the true nature of it all as the Na'vi did, and had the faith to accept it without any tedious technical explanation.


In short, the woodsprite would've never landed on Neytiri's arrow, and Tom's avatar would've been killed 2nd day on Pandora. Simple as that.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

They would have never met, if Tom was there instead of Sam, he would have stuck with Norm and Grace, therefore never touching those plants, therefore not being chased into the forest bye the thanator, therefore never meeting NeyNey D:

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by X.,.Pandora.,.X

They would have never met, if Tom was there instead of Sam, he would have stuck with Norm and Grace, therefore never touching those plants, therefore not being chased into the forest bye the thanator, therefore never meeting NeyNey D:

Which would have been a really boring movie XD

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

lol xD and no fangirls D:

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Ah... Tom died on Earth.

Jake had no idea what to do as a Na'vi at first either. He had to learn their ways, not apply his human skills.

My friend remember, as Jake lay in the VA hospital on Earth he started having dreams of flying. It is clear that these dreams were Prophetic. It was clear he was having dreams of his future destiny on Pandora. Now remember, he was having these dreams BEFORE Tom got killed, so it is clear that someone (Eywa) was giving him some Insights of his Great Destiny, insights as to what he was to do/who he was to become.

As we watch the film we clearly see Eywa influencing events to ensure Jake arrives at his destiny.
Eywa saves Jake's life when Neytiri is about to kill him, she also ensures that Jake is taken back to the village and trained in the Na'vi ways.
As I watched the film for the first time, there was no doubt in my mind that Eywa was influencing events not just on Pandora but from Jake's time on Earth, as Evidenced by the Prophetic Dreams of flying. Everything that happened After those dreams (including Tom getting killed) happened in order to bring Jake to his destiny.

Remember although Eywa has a physical component (connections between the trees etc), she is also a spiritual entity, with the power to reach across space and time.

In an interview (with James Lipton, for the show "Inside the Actors Studio"), James Cameron referred to Eywa as an "Encompassing Spirit", and he has also mentioned that one of the themes the film explores is "the Power of Destiny".

You are correct in saying that Jake had no idea what to do as a Na'vi at the beginning.The film shows him going through a great transformation and spiritual awakening. But this transformation would not have happened had he not come with his "Cup Empty" as opposed to Tom who was another know-it-all (but ultimately clueless) scientist.

Jake needed to learn their ways first, but after learning the Na'vi ways, his military skills as a marine were also clearly visible at the end. Skills which Tom just did not have.

Had Tom gone to Pandora instead of Jake, he would never have met Neytiri, and would never have been trained in the Na'vi ways. Even if he had met Neytiri, I am certain that Neytiri would rather have settled for Tsu'tey.

You need to be a Warrior, with a strong heart, and No Fear, to become Toruk Makto, and win Neytiri's heart, and save Pandora. Jake was that man. Not Tom.

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

...Is everyone forgetting something?

Tom's "cup is full". Sure, he would've sided with Grace and the other scientists against Quaritch, but he would've never gotten in with the Na'vi. He was already completely brainwashed on earth. Grace was the same.

No matter how much he'd love the Na'vi, he'd never be one of them because he already had preconceived ideas about them that weren't in line with how the Na'vi believed in Eywa, how they lived, their rituals and ways of life (and the sacred nature of it all), and most importantly: what Pandora meant to them. He would see it all as a big science mystery, while Jake saw the true nature of it all as the Na'vi did, and had the faith to accept it without any tedious technical explanation.


In short, the woodsprite would've never landed on Neytiri's arrow, and Tom's avatar would've been killed 2nd day on Pandora. Simple as that.

Thats an interesting way to put it. Jake was sort of a blank slate. He knew nothing about the culture and the Na'vi molded him into becoming one of the people and he saw life the way they did. While Tom already had an idea about the culture because he studied it, but he studied it through the eyes of a skyperson, but Jake studied it through the eyes of the Na'vi.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

...Is everyone forgetting something?

Tom's "cup is full". Sure, he would've sided with Grace and the other scientists against Quaritch, but he would've never gotten in with the Na'vi. He was already completely brainwashed on earth. Grace was the same.

No matter how much he'd love the Na'vi, he'd never be one of them because he already had preconceived ideas about them that weren't in line with how the Na'vi believed in Eywa, how they lived, their rituals and ways of life (and the sacred nature of it all), and most importantly: what Pandora meant to them. He would see it all as a big science mystery, while Jake saw the true nature of it all as the Na'vi did, and had the faith to accept it without any tedious technical explanation.


In short, the woodsprite would've never landed on Neytiri's arrow, and Tom's avatar would've been killed 2nd day on Pandora. Simple as that.

I doubt it. Atokirina aren't conscious, it's not like they were specifically looking for Jake. Eywa decided to try something, whether that was Jake or Tome wouldn't have changed a thing.
Suer, perhaps tom wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place, but that doesn't mean things would have NEEDED to happen as they HAD happened. things could conceivably happen differently.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

My friend remember, as Jake lay in the VA hospital on Earth he started having dreams of flying. It is clear that these dreams were Prophetic. It was clear he was having dreams of his future destiny on Pandora. Now remember, he was having these dreams BEFORE Tom got killed, so it is clear that someone (Eywa) was giving him some Insights of his Great Destiny, insights as to what he was to do/who he was to become.

I've dreamed of flying too before I saw Avatar. Just because he was wishing for something different, doesn't mean it was specifically Pandora.

As we watch the film we clearly see Eywa influencing events to ensure Jake arrives at his destiny.
Eywa saves Jake's life when Neytiri is about to kill him, she also ensures that Jake is taken back to the village and trained in the Na'vi ways.

Like him nearly dying 3 times in short succession? (4 times counting Tsu'tey and the other hunters)

As I watched the film for the first time, there was no doubt in my mind that Eywa was influencing events not just on Pandora but from Jake's time on Earth, as Evidenced by the Prophetic Dreams of flying. Everything that happened After those dreams (including Tom getting killed) happened in order to bring Jake to his destiny.

"Our great mother does not take sides. She protects only the balance of life."

Eywa is formed form the plants on Pandora - that connection does not each Earth. Anyway, Eywa is not mind control, particularly with creatures like humans who can not connect.

Remember although Eywa has a physical component (connections between the trees etc), she is also a spiritual entity, with the power to reach across space and time.

I don't see how.

In an interview (with James Lipton, for the show "Inside the Actors Studio"), James Cameron referred to Eywa as an "Encompassing Spirit", and he has also mentioned that one of the themes the film explores is "the Power of Destiny".

'explores' perhaps... doesn't give any specific definition though. That's for us to determine.

You are correct in saying that Jake had no idea what to do as a Na'vi at the beginning.The film shows him going through a great transformation and spiritual awakening. But this transformation would not have happened had he not come with his "Cup Empty" as opposed to Tom who was another know-it-all (but ultimately clueless) scientist.

Perhaps... I still don't think there's any reason he couldn't have done it.
BECAUSE it never happened, we don't know who it would have gone.
Jake had preconceptions about the Na'vi too, about why he was on Pandora, he even sided with Quaritch.
He had to learn to see past those, how was that any different?

Jake needed to learn their ways first, but after learning the Na'vi ways, his military skills as a marine were also clearly visible at the end. Skills which Tom just did not have.

I didn't see them.
On falling through the trees gently? On using a bow?
I don't think the Na'vi have much application for indiscriminately killing people.

Had Tom gone to Pandora instead of Jake, he would never have met Neytiri, and would never have been trained in the Na'vi ways. Even if he had met Neytiri, I am certain that Neytiri would rather have settled for Tsu'tey.

Not in the way Jake did... but how do you know things wouldn't have happened differently? Because it never happened, we don't know.

You need to be a Warrior, with a strong heart, and No Fear, to become Toruk Makto, and win Neytiri's heart, and save Pandora. Jake was that man. Not Tom.

I find the entire point of Toruk Makto interesting... the ONLY reason Jake did it, we because he looked at how and came up with a way to 'think outside the box' to do it... I'd guess that's how the Na'vi before him did. He's not the only person who can do that.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by electrosphere11

Thats a good question. Though if it were Tom on Pandora and Quaritch got him to live with the Omatikaya, I don't know if he would embrace it as openly as Jake had.

He would have more... He learned all about the Na'vi, he wanted to go to Pandora.
He wouldn't have agreed to spy for Quaritch. He wouldn't have wanted to get done and get back to Earth.

Originally Posted by Neytiri.

Jake only succeeded because of his military training and who he is as a person. Tom was a scientist. They would have most likely never met creating no reaction what so ever.

Jake had no idea what to do until Neytiri taught him. All he did was bring the Na'vi together in the end. that's not necessarily a unique quality.

Originally Posted by Elyannia

I didnt mean attracted as in physical or love attraction...I meant a fascination kind of attraction.

I doubt Tom could have been able to fight against the RDA he wasn't skilled in that department he was the brains, Jake was the brawns. Sure Tom may have cared more about the Na'vi in the beginnig than Jake, but I think by the end of the movie Jake would have cared more since he risked his life to fight for them.

Neither did I.
Neytiri hated Jake at first, he was a skxawng. It was only when he started to See that she changed her opinion of him.

Anyway, just because Tom was more intelligent and less dumb muscle, doesn't mean he couldn't have fought the humans... he might have done it DIFFERENTLY over all but he really wouldn't have been unable to.
I hate the thinly veiled anti-intellectual implications of this thread... Tom might have done things differently, but he still could have done it.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Tom Sully was not the chosen one. Jake was. That's why Eywa had Tom killed. Eywa needed Jake, who was a marine and whose abilities as a marine would serve her purposes. When Jake became Toruk Makto he used his skills as a marine to help the Na'vi destroy the RDA. Tom could not have done that.
The fact that Tom had a PhD does not necessarily mean he is more intelligent, it just means he was more accademic, there is a difference, I also doubt that he would have the courage, bravery and boldness necessary to achieve what Jake did.
Neytiri would never have fallen in love with Tom Sully.

Ah.

..So Eywa is a murderous selfish deity, who killed Tom, using Jake to remove the RDA from Pandora and return absolute control to her?

Sorry if it sounds odd, but that's what it looks like to me.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by Human No More

I doubt it. Atokirina aren't conscious, it's not like they were specifically looking for Jake. Eywa decided to try something, whether that was Jake or Tome wouldn't have changed a thing.
Suer, perhaps tom wouldn't have been in that situation in the first place, but that doesn't mean things would have NEEDED to happen as they HAD happened. things could conceivably happen differently.

The atokirina are not conscious, but Eywa is and put them in place to save Jake. She would not have bothered with Tom, and Neytiri would have killed him on the spot.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I've dreamed of flying too before I saw Avatar. Just because he was wishing for something different, doesn't mean it was specifically Pandora.

you know full well that his dreams (as shown on the screen) were reminiscent of Pandora and were evoking images of his future.

Originally Posted by Human No More

"Our great mother does not take sides. She protects only the balance of life."

Eywa is formed form the plants on Pandora - that connection does not each Earth. Anyway, Eywa is not mind control, particularly with creatures like humans who can not connect.

There may be a physical component to Eywa (namely the interconnected plants) but there is also a spiritual component (in the same way that humans have a physical component -the body; and a spiritual component - the soul). Eywa did not need to control minds in order to influence events, she is like God (and may indeed be a manifestation of God), and is able to arrange events in ways we do not understand. In the film we see Jake making a series of choices, which ultimately lead him to his destiny. That is how a deity like Eywa/God works - by inspiring us to make the decisions that will take us to the desired end.

In the film Neytiri does say - "Our great mother does not take sides. She protects only the balance of life". However at the end of the film, it is very clear that Eywa does indeed take sides, as we see the Pandoran wildlife tear the humans to shreds. It is clear that when it comes to protecting her interests, Eywa does indeed take sides.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I didn't see them.
On falling through the trees gently? On using a bow?
I don't think the Na'vi have much application for indiscriminately killing people.

Jake had use of a machine gun and grenades. The grenades were used to destroy the shuttle an the partly destroy the dragon gunship. He used his weapons like a marine, I cannot see Tom carrying out those heroics.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I find the entire point of Toruk Makto interesting... the ONLY reason Jake did it, we because he looked at how and came up with a way to 'think outside the box' to do it... I'd guess that's how the Na'vi before him did. He's not the only person who can do that.

The reason Jake became Toruk Makto was because he was chosen by Eywa. It was Eywa that inspired him to tame Toruk. He is the only person in five generations who did this. I cannot believe that Tom could have done it. Look at all the other scientists that have been involved in the Avatar program over the years, none of them have ever been fully accepted by the Na'vi, Tom would have been just like them.

You can be certain that Neytiri would never have fallen in love with Tom. Jakes qualities are rare and unique, and he proved his uniqueness by accomplishing what he did.

Originally Posted by Advent

Ah.

..So Eywa is a murderous selfish deity, who killed Tom, using Jake to remove the RDA from Pandora and return absolute control to her?

Sorry if it sounds odd, but that's what it looks like to me.

Eywa is not murderous, but she is certainly not afraid to take a life. Eywa had no remorse when she massacred the human forces on Pandora, at the end of the film. Eywa is not murderous or selfish, she is Benevolent. she was acting in the interests of Pandora and the Na'vi.

If Tom had survived and had gone to Pandora, he would have been just another useless avatar driver. Eywa does not need another useless avatar driver on Pandora, She wanted to raise up a Toruk Makto, and Tom did not fit the picture, so he had to go. I know it sounds cruel, but that is how destiny works. Jake was chosen, and nothing was going to stop him becoming the Saviour of Pandora.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

The atokirina are not conscious, but Eywa is and put them in place to save Jake. She would not have bothered with Tom, and Neytiri would have killed him on the spot.

Why?
Tom was his identical twin. He could have done things exactly the same. Either way, Eywa simply decided to try to again with the tawtute... it could have been anyone.

you know full well that his dreams (as shown on the screen) were reminiscent of Pandora and were evoking images of his future.

Yes, but that doesn't mean they were specific.

There may be a physical component to Eywa (namely the interconnected plants) but there is also a spiritual component (in the same way that humans have a physical component -the body; and a spiritual component - the soul). Eywa did not need to control minds in order to influence events, she is like God (and may indeed be a manifestation of God), and is able to arrange events in ways we do not understand. In the film we see Jake making a series of choices, which ultimately lead him to his destiny. That is how a deity like Eywa/God works - by inspiring us to make the decisions that will take us to the desired end.

That component is only a function of the hardware. That's why when most people die (excluding Grace here because she was connected) then they are gone. That's the reason Quaritch wanted to destroy the tree of souls. It can't exist with nothing to actually hold it.
Eywa is not a 'god' - not in any sense, particularly not in the 'invisible friend who likes to cause genocide and suffering'.
It's not 'destiny' when you make the right choice - Jake could have just as easily failed. Just because the odds are against someone, does not mean that they are being controlled when they succeed.

In the film Neytiri does say - "Our great mother does not take sides. She protects only the balance of life". However at the end of the film, it is very clear that Eywa does indeed take sides, as we see the Pandoran wildlife tear the humans to shreds. It is clear that when it comes to protecting her interests, Eywa does indeed take sides.

Only when protecting her existence (and even then, it was the angtsik, the palulukan, the ikran and the nantang who actually acted, not Eywa directly. There weren't trees attacking the humans. Look how long it took, how much death, and the eventual danger, before then.

Jake had use of a machine gun and grenades. The grenades were used to destroy the shuttle an the partly destroy the dragon gunship. He used his weapons like a marine, I cannot see Tom carrying out those heroics.

So did Norm. Do you really think Jake was the only person capable of doing that?


I think a lot of this thread is military apologism... Avatar had a CLEAR message on the military,. but some people seem to overly support it. I'm not a fan of the anti-intellectualism either... are you forgetting how important Grace was in the events?

The reason Jake became Toruk Makto was because he was chosen by Eywa. It was Eywa that inspired him to tame Toruk. He is the only person in five generations who did this.

Because he thought about it logically and realised how ALL the other Na'vi must have done it.
He was INSPIRED to, yes, but he was not controlled. Equally, Toruk did not fly up and let him climb on.

I cannot believe that Tom could have done it. Look at all the other scientists that have been involved in the Avatar program over the years, none of them have ever been fully accepted by the Na'vi, Tom would have been just like them.

They never got the chance.

You can be certain that Neytiri would never have fallen in love with Tom. Jakes qualities are rare and unique, and he proved his uniqueness by accomplishing what he did.

Why not? Because he wasn't some skxawng?
Neytiri only fell in love with Jake as he learned... She HATED him at first.

Eywa is not murderous, but she is certainly not afraid to take a life. Eywa had no remorse when she massacred the human forces on Pandora, at the end of the film. Eywa is not murderous or selfish, she is Benevolent. she was acting in the interests of Pandora and the Na'vi.

I kind of agree... but it was still the life of Pandora which actually acted, even if they could tell what NEEDED to be done.

If Tom had survived and had gone to Pandora, he would have been just another useless avatar driver.

Based on what exactly?
Because it never happened, we don't know how events would have unfolded.

Eywa does not need another useless avatar driver on Pandora, She wanted to raise up a Toruk Makto, and Tom did not fit the picture, so he had to go.

Would ARGUABLY be reasonable if Tom died on Pandora, but he didn't.

Interesting you didn't reply to my second post...