How might Neytiri react to Tom Sully?

[Advent]

Hmm.

So Tom was killed mercilessly by Eywa because he 'didn't fit the picture'?

[Woodsprite]

...I don't think it's possible for Eywa to be a part of Tom's death. As far as I know (or "believe"), Eywa is a sentient organism... but not a supernatural one that spans across the universe. Tom's death was, IMO, coinsidental, but not fated for Jake to save Pandora.

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Why?
Tom was his identical twin. He could have done things exactly the same. Either way, Eywa simply decided to try to again with the tawtute... it could have been anyone.

Just because they are twins that in no way makes them the same person. They both have very different ways of thinking like most twins do. My boyfriend has a twin and they are night and day. No where even close to being alike. I hate it when people say "Oh their twins they obviously must think they same way and do things the same way."

[Neytiri.]

Originally Posted by Elyannia

Just because they are twins that in no way makes them the same person. They both have very different ways of thinking like most twins do. My boyfriend has a twin and they are night and day. No where even close to being alike. I hate it when people say "Oh their twins they obviously must think they same way and do things the same way."

^ This.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Elyannia

Just because they are twins that in no way makes them the same person. They both have very different ways of thinking like most twins do. My boyfriend has a twin and they are night and day. No where even close to being alike. I hate it when people say "Oh their twins they obviously must think they same way and do things the same way."

I never said they would do things exactly the same way... but you are all writing him off completely as being unable to do it at all in some kind of bizarre apologism.

[electrosphere11]

Originally Posted by Neytiri.

^ This.

I've also seen twins that are very similar in personality as well as appearence. We don't really know anything about Tom so I'd say its possible he could be either or.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by electrosphere11

I've also seen twins that are very similar in personality as well as appearence. We don't really know anything about Tom so I'd say its possible he could be either or.

I'd say it could only be that way if Tom had at least some semblance of combat training that Jake had in order to accomplish the same thing.

But (off topic) there's another thing about Jake that I don't understand though, when he says (in the SE) "I'm not officer material", after he just led a 2,000-warrior army against a fleet of superior firepower, and then with a little more help, won.

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by Human No More

I never said they would do things exactly the same way... but you are all writing him off completely as being unable to do it at all in some kind of bizarre apologism.

Because Tom already knew about Pandora, he didn't have that childlike curiousness like Jake and which is what resulted him into meeting Neytiri. Plus Grace, who loved the Na'vi more than anyone else, no where got even close to being Na'vi like Jake did, what makes you think someone like Tom could be?

[electrosphere11]

I agree in that sense. He probably wouldn't of wandered off and gotten attacked by a Thanator. But you never know. He could of had the same results through another outcome.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Elyannia

Because Tom already knew about Pandora, he didn't have that childlike curiousness like Jake and which is what resulted him into meeting Neytiri. Plus Grace, who loved the Na'vi more than anyone else, no where got even close to being Na'vi like Jake did, what makes you think someone like Tom could be?

Blame the marines for that... remember what happened?
If that hadn't, then it could possibly have easily happened.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

...I don't think it's possible for Eywa to be a part of Tom's death. As far as I know (or "believe"), Eywa is a sentient organism... but not a supernatural one that spans across the universe. Tom's death was, IMO, coinsidental, but not fated for Jake to save Pandora.

Exactly.

Therefore, I officially put down the 'Eywa killed Tom' theory.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Why?
Tom was his identical twin. He could have done things exactly the same. Either way, Eywa simply decided to try to again with the tawtute... it could have been anyone.

Lets face it, Tom was never going to do things the same way. No two people ever do things the same way. You are wrong to say it could have been anyone. No two people's mission in life is ever the same, each person has a unique role in life. A person like Jake is not just interchangeable with anyone.

Eywa is not a 'god' - not in any sense, particularly not in the 'invisible friend who likes to cause genocide and suffering'.
It's not 'destiny' when you make the right choice -

None of us fully understand what Eywa is, so don't try and pigeon-hole Eywa into to your little box.

Jake could have just as easily failed. Just because the odds are against someone, does not mean that they are being controlled when they succeed.

My friend, Jake was never going to fail. As James Cameron said, the film explores the meaning of Destiny. As Jake took off on his Toruk to unite the clans, we not only see history repeating itself, but we also see prophecy unfolding.
Jake was not being controlled but rather being inspired into action by the providence of a 'Higher Power'.

Only when protecting her existence (and even then, it was the angtsik, the palulukan, the ikran and the nantang who actually acted, not Eywa directly. There weren't trees attacking the humans. Look how long it took, how much death, and the eventual danger, before then.

Look, Eywa takes full responsibility for the blood bath in the final battle. You cannot pin the blame on the Pandoran wildlife, those creatures were just following orders, they cannot reason for themselves about the morality of taking a life, so Eywa must take FULL blame for the actions of those creatures and for the ensuing massacre.
I suppose by your reasoning, Adolf Hitler is completely innocent of the deaths of Millions, since he himself never directly killed anyone, he simply got his soldiers to do it. That makes him innocent right?

So did Norm. Do you really think Jake was the only person capable of doing that?

All I remember Norm doing, was haplessly firing a machine gun, taking out one or two RDA men, and then getting himself shot. He later stumbles out of the mobile link site with a machine gun, when the battle was practically over. I admire Norm's courage, but lets face it, the guy was a loose end, as far as the battle was concerned. And Tom would have been about as much good as Norm.
Jake's assault on the shuttle and the Dragon gunship were the kind of audacious assaults only a warrior/soldier like Jake would attempt. The only other person I saw who showed similar courage and audacity was Tsu'tey.

I think a lot of this thread is military apologism... Avatar had a CLEAR message on the military,. but some people seem to overly support it. I'm not a fan of the anti-intellectualism either... are you forgetting how important Grace was in the events?

No. Not at all. There is no military apollogism or anti-intellectualism on this thread. You need to admit that what Jake did could not just have been done by anyone, which is what you are saying. The film did not critcise the military, it criticised the ABUSE of military power. Jake used his military training (and Na'vi training) for the right purposes, - to liberate Pandora.
My problem with the scientists such as Tom, is the same problem the Na'vi had with the scientists:
"We have tried to teach other Sky People. It is hard to fill a cup which is already full"
Their inability to believe, their refusal to let go of their fixed ideas and flawed reasoning, and their self delusion that made them believe they had nothing to learn.

Why not? Because he wasn't some skxawng?
Neytiri only fell in love with Jake as he learned... She HATED him at first.

I think Hate is a rather strong word. She may have disliked him at first, but even at the beginning she could tell he had a strong heart, with no fear.
She obviously liked him enough to stalk him for several hours and then save his life by killing those viperwolves.

Based on what exactly?
Because it never happened, we don't know how events would have unfolded.
Would ARGUABLY be reasonable if Tom died on Pandora, but he didn't.

Well maybe Eywa can reach beyond Pandora. Jake did start having those dreams on Earth. He did become the prophesied Toruk Makto. When a person is destined to a certain end, EVERYTHING that happens to them can be said to have been arranged by a higher power.

Originally Posted by Advent

Hmm.
So Tom was killed mercilessly by Eywa because he 'didn't fit the picture'?

It was tragic that Tom got killed, but remember, Eywa killed a lot more people than just Tom. Jake and Neytiri also killed large numbers of people in defending Pandora. Was Tom's life any more important than those others who also died?

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

...I don't think it's possible for Eywa to be a part of Tom's death. As far as I know (or "believe"), Eywa is a sentient organism... but not a supernatural one that spans across the universe. Tom's death was, IMO, coinsidental, but not fated for Jake to save Pandora.

I take it you know all there is to know about Eywa. Eywa is supernatural, there is no getting around that fact.

Originally Posted by Elyannia

Just because they are twins that in no way makes them the same person. They both have very different ways of thinking like most twins do. My boyfriend has a twin and they are night and day. No where even close to being alike. I hate it when people say "Oh their twins they obviously must think they same way and do things the same way."

Well said.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I never said they would do things exactly the same way... but you are all writing him off completely as being unable to do it at all in some kind of bizarre apologism.

The reason we are writing him off is because Jake was unique and the circumstances surrounding him and his involvement with the Na'vi were unique, you cannot transpose Jake's attributes and his circumstances on to Tom, just because they were twins.
Jake mentions at the start of the film "All I ever wanted was something worth fighting for", this is indicative of a person willing to devote himself for a good cause, and by the end of the film he finds his cause.
Tom however was in the same mold as Grace or Norm, a selfish scientist, only there to satisfy their curiosity, and not willing to give their hearts to the people they are studying.

Originally Posted by Advent

Exactly.
Therefore, I officially put down the 'Eywa killed Tom' theory.

As James Cameron said, one of the themes of the film is how free-will intermingles with Destiny. If Jake was destined to save Pandora, then everything that happened in his life (including Tom's death) can be said to have been arranged by a higher power. We already see how this higher power chose him and saved his life throughout the film.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Jake's assault on the shuttle and the Dragon gunship were the kind of audacious assaults only a warrior/soldier like Jake would attempt. The only other person I saw who showed similar courage and audacity was Tsu'tey.

I take it you know all there is to know about Eywa. Eywa is supernatural, there is no getting around that fact.

I'm quoting two posts here, because I saw faults in them. Alas, that's how I do things.

Firstly, of course Norm didn't try to assault the Dragon and Shuttle. He wasn't given the training from the Na'vi, nor did he have an Ikran or Toruk. If Tom had those things, an M60, grenades, and some courage, he could've pulled it off just as Jake did. Probably with a little more difficulty, but it's perfectly probable.

Movie magic, right there.

And Eywa may very well be just a large, sentient organism. The animals have no sentience and are connected to Eywa. Humans are sentient, and have no connection or interest in Eywa.
And as my main point, the network of trees connecting Eywa with Pandora's inhabitants only spans one planet. Earth is billions of light-years away.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Lets face it, Tom was never going to do things the same way. No two people ever do things the same way. You are wrong to say it could have been anyone. No two people's mission in life is ever the same, each person has a unique role in life. A person like Jake is not just interchangeable with anyone.

Did I ever say he would do things the same way? No.
Did I say he COULD still do it? Yes.
See the difference?

None of us fully understand what Eywa is, so don't try and pigeon-hole Eywa into to your little box.

Yet you say that after having done just that yourself.

My friend, Jake was never going to fail. As James Cameron said, the film explores the meaning of Destiny. As Jake took off on his Toruk to unite the clans, we not only see history repeating itself, but we also see prophecy unfolding.
Jake was not being controlled but rather being inspired into action by the providence of a 'Higher Power'.

Again, read your own quote above.
'Destiny' is subjective - if you THINK it will happen, it probably will.

Look, Eywa takes full responsibility for the blood bath in the final battle. You cannot pin the blame on the Pandoran wildlife, those creatures were just following orders, they cannot reason for themselves about the morality of taking a life, so Eywa must take FULL blame for the actions of those creatures and for the ensuing massacre.

Did I ever 'pin the blame'? No. You're the only person I see doing that.
'Following orders' - they weren't TOLD what to do, they realised what was necessary and did it themselves.
anyway, no need for 'blame', as they were only humans, and marines at that

I suppose by your reasoning, Adolf Hitler is completely innocent of the deaths of Millions, since he himself never directly killed anyone, he simply got his soldiers to do it. That makes him innocent right?

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
That was uncalled for. Your points are now invalid.

All I remember Norm doing, was haplessly firing a machine gun, taking out one or two RDA men, and then getting himself shot. He later stumbles out of the mobile link site with a machine gun, when the battle was practically over. I admire Norm's courage, but lets face it, the guy was a loose end, as far as the battle was concerned. And Tom would have been about as much good as Norm.

Based on what?
Again this ridiculous apologism? This thread is really starting to smell of anti-intellectualism and I do not like it.

Jake's assault on the shuttle and the Dragon gunship were the kind of audacious assaults only a warrior/soldier like Jake would attempt. The only other person I saw who showed similar courage and audacity was Tsu'tey.

How about ALL THE NA'VI? Or were you too busy working out who to 'blame' for the tawtute all dying?

No. Not at all. There is no military apollogism or anti-intellectualism on this thread. You need to admit that what Jake did could not just have been done by anyone, which is what you are saying.

How exactly?
There is nothing Jake could have done uniquely.

The film did not critcise the military, it criticised the ABUSE of military power. Jake used his military training (and Na'vi training) for the right purposes, - to liberate Pandora.
My problem with the scientists such as Tom, is the same problem the Na'vi had with the scientists:
"We have tried to teach other Sky People. It is hard to fill a cup which is already full"
Their inability to believe, their refusal to let go of their fixed ideas and flawed reasoning, and their self delusion that made them believe they had nothing to learn.

Ah... Grace?

I think Hate is a rather strong word. She may have disliked him at first, but even at the beginning she could tell he had a strong heart, with no fear.
She obviously liked him enough to stalk him for several hours and then save his life by killing those viperwolves.

Only because of the atokirina. Without it she would have killed him herself. Even after saving him form the nantang, she kept telling him to leave.

[quote]Well maybe Eywa can reach beyond Pandora. Jake did start having those dreams on Earth.[quote]
So now dreams are the future? PERHAPS... If Jake had started dreaming of Toruk. Flying... Just no

He did become the prophesied Toruk Makto. When a person is destined to a certain end, EVERYTHING that happens to them can be said to have been arranged by a higher power.

Prophesised how?

I take it you know all there is to know about Eywa. Eywa is supernatural, there is no getting around that fact.

I'd say she is physical and there is no getting around that fact.

The reason we are writing him off is because Jake was unique and the circumstances surrounding him and his involvement with the Na'vi were unique, you cannot transpose Jake's attributes and his circumstances on to Tom, just because they were twins.

I never did.
There is never only one way to do something. If you can't accept that you're deliberately being blind.
Also, what Advent said. Not to mention that Tom is certainly more intelligent than Jake and could have likely come up with a much better strategy...

Jake mentions at the start of the film "All I ever wanted was something worth fighting for", this is indicative of a person willing to devote himself for a good cause, and by the end of the film he finds his cause.
Tom however was in the same mold as Grace or Norm, a selfish scientist, only there to satisfy their curiosity, and not willing to give their hearts to the people they are studying.

Are you ****ing joking?
Read the script. See how much Grace cares about the Na'vi. Even check the BACKGROUND MATERIAL and the GAME...

As James Cameron said, one of the themes of the film is how free-will intermingles with Destiny. If Jake was destined to save Pandora, then everything that happened in his life (including Tom's death) can be said to have been arranged by a higher power. We already see how this higher power chose him and saved his life throughout the film.

Yet it still doesn't state 'destiny' directly. If it is free will and destiny, then you can interpret that as you see fit...

[Elyannia]

This thread should be closed. I do not like seeing people personally attacking someone else.