An Unarmed America?

[ZenitYerkes]

Well people, first of all, you know I always try to never lie anyone; but I've heard myself and I have to say that being the first person that is against hiding facts to the people to appear right, instead of being right; I've just done that. I feel bad, ashamed for that. For example, about the stats I mentioned before (US and Spain), I noticed that being the US such a big country (twice as big as Europe), we'd have to join all Europe's stats to make something similar.

So, I am not to defend my position here with lies.

That being said; I have to admit that Spain is not the US. I have no idea of how crime is there, but if you have to bring a gun with you whenever you go to feel safer, it's sure that it's no good there. Anyway, I asked on Yahoo Answers about why I should buy a gun in case I went to the US and gladly some of the answers were from people who never bought one.

However, I have to point out that in countries where guns are restricted to the military and police (such as Spain) homicides and suicides by shotgun, are quite infrequent. And that is a fact.

I have to add also, to those who reply that the criminals will always got arms by the black market; we know. We've got a terrorist organization called ETA, that claims the Basque Country to be free; and they just don't go to the store and say "Hm, gimme 10 kilos of napalm please". They have explosives spread all over France and Spain. But, thanks to the police work done recently, they're dissolving this organization successfully.

And now we're talking about ETA, I was just next to an illegal act of pro-ETA activists in which the police took part. And they just did their job and took them out of the streets with some tear gas.

Just imagine the same situation if everybody had a gun.

[Советский меч]

They banned handguns in the UK and gun crimes with handguns shot up 30%. With gun control guns will now be taken from law abiding citizens and will be in the hands of criminals. They will work like drugs, people who want them can get them or make their own. Please use logic, do you honestly think that criminals will give up their guns? Especially not thanks to your gun control, now we cant defend ourselves from criminals.
Criminals break the law, what makes you think they will obey this one?
We dont have to carry guns with us to FEEL safe, it makes us safer, your making the assumption that all americans are afraid to the point that we carry guns everywhere at all times. We dont.

[ZenitYerkes]

Originally Posted by Harvester of Sorrow

They banned handguns in the UK and gun crimes with handguns shot up 30%. With gun control guns will now be taken from law abiding citizens and will be in the hands of criminals. They will work like drugs, people who want them can get them or make their own. Please use logic, do you honestly think that criminals will give up their guns? Especially not thanks to your gun control, now we cant defend ourselves from criminals.
Criminals break the law, what makes you think they will obey this one?
We dont have to carry guns with us to FEEL safe, it makes us safer, your making the assumption that all americans are afraid to the point that we carry guns everywhere at all times. We dont.

See, this is exactly the problem in countries where guns have been already handed out. Criminals have had all the facilities to get one, so no matter how many restrictions you put, the gangs will keep their firearms.

It's late here and I have to go bed soon, so I'll reply properly tomorrow. Just wanted to say that.

[Советский меч]

You just contradicted yourself.

[Devourment]

Chances are, if I for whatever reason went off the deep end and wanted to kill someone, it's not like I'd just forget about it if I didn't have a gun, I could just as easily grab a kitchen knife and stab them to death.

It's been said a million times, but guns don't kill people, people kill people.

[Sonoran Na'vi]

Guns make killing others more efficient; but, the presence of guns, in my opinion, does not necessarily mean a rise in crime rates. Most homicides and attempted homicides are committed by someone the victim knows (I think the main two reasons involve romantic relationships and drug activity, but I could be wrong). I'm not sure if the reduction of guns will cause a reduction in crimes concerning drugs and relationships because the motivation of these types of crimes should not be affected by the type of weapon available.

[Советский меч]

Originally Posted by Sonoran Na'vi

Guns make killing others more efficient; but, the presence of guns, in my opinion, does not necessarily mean a rise in crime rates. Most homicides and attempted homicides are committed by someone the victim knows (I think the main two reasons involve romantic relationships and drug activity, but I could be wrong). I'm not sure if the reduction of guns will cause a reduction in crimes concerning drugs and relationships because the motivation of these types of crimes should not be affected by the type of weapon available.

I have to agree with you, if someone wants to kill someone else then they will get the job done even if they dont have a gun.

[ZenitYerkes]

Alright then, crime will keep existing even though we take out all the guns. But, and this is the main question I wanted to ask since the beginning of the debate: should the preventive ownership of guns be permitted? You're just going to use it for self-defense, but do you know how to recognize aggressive situations with the panic spread all over your body? Or how to control yourself just when you've got that motherf*cker in front of you?

Also, I think a man with a gun is much more dangerous that a man with any other weapon. Mostly because of the range of such weapons (throwing a knife VS shooting from 20 yards); but also because the temptation (call it X) of committing crime is bigger with a gun rather than with a knife for example. It's much more imposing and effective than any other arm, and the only use you can give to your gun is to kill or harm seriously somebody.

I am not talking in this case about criminals (we've said that crime will stay no matter how many regulations we put), I am talking about people that commit lethal errors with firearms, or become murderers because of an altered emotional state.

[Human No More]

Guns make killing a lot easier. If you had to beat someone to death with your bare hands, you'd be a lot less likely to do it than if you could stab them, which is less likely again than if you could shoot them.

In the UK (population c. 60.5m) there were 765 reported incidents of murder for 2005-6 (Home Office, undated) – a rate of about 1.1 per 100,000.

In the US (population c. 298.5m) there were an estimated 16,137 homicides in 2004 (FBI, 2006a) – a rate of about 5.4 per 100,000. Of these, 10,654 were carried out with guns (FBI, 2006b).

US and UK murder – rate and weapon

[Советский меч]

Wrong human, a knife will be quieter and wont make noise sure a gun will be easier and you can do it from a rage, but chances are that the killer doesnt want to get caught. If i had to kill someone and not get caught, a knife would be my first choice, just sayin.

[Wanderling]

Originally Posted by Harvester of Sorrow

Wrong human, a knife will be quieter and wont make noise sure a gun will be easier and you can do it from a rage, but chances are that the killer doesnt want to get caught. If i had to kill someone and not get caught, a knife would be my first choice, just sayin.

I think he was referring to someone trying to defend themselves against an attacker, not the actual aggressor.

I just wanted to add, Zenit...I live in the US and I don't own a gun. I never care to. I really do think guns make killing people much too easy. I don't have any firm opinion on which direction gun control should take because I do see both sides, but I won't be buying a gun. It's like you said...the fear is what drives a lot of people to seek the additional protection having a gun would provide them (note I said "a lot", not all, I'm sure!). Carrying a gun doesn't feel like a good solution to that atmosphere of fear, *for me*.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Harvester of Sorrow

Wrong human, a knife will be quieter and wont make noise sure a gun will be easier and you can do it from a rage, but chances are that the killer doesnt want to get caught. If i had to kill someone and not get caught, a knife would be my first choice, just sayin.

Around here, everyone knows it's a huge risk to, because by carrying one, you're far more likely to get stabbed and killed yourself if you tried to stab someone. With a gun, you can shoot someone from a long distance and people are less likely to try and stop you. Even the police are a lot more careful.
If you stab someone, you're creating a huge amount of evidence in terms of blood, DNA, any injuries on you from the fight, and you have an obvious murder weapon that can easily be traced to the wounds if found and will carry the victim's and murderer's DNA.
In the time I've lived here, people have been stabbed, they have been murdered in other ways, but nobody has been shot around here. Even the use of guns for threatening (e.g. in robberies) is rare enough.

Originally Posted by Harvester of Sorrow

They banned handguns in the UK and gun crimes with handguns shot up 30%.

I'd like to see your source for that, particularly since it's completely fictional. Handguns have not been freely available for an extremely long time. Even shotguns and rifles need a license, and if you walked around carrying one, the police would shoot you.

[Советский меч]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Around here, everyone knows it's a huge risk to, because by carrying one, you're far more likely to get stabbed and killed yourself if you tried to stab someone. With a gun, you can shoot someone from a long distance and people are less likely to try and stop you. Even the police are a lot more careful.
If you stab someone, you're creating a huge amount of evidence in terms of blood, DNA, any injuries on you from the fight, and you have an obvious murder weapon that can easily be traced to the wounds if found and will carry the victim's and murderer's DNA.
In the time I've lived here, people have been stabbed, they have been murdered in other ways, but nobody has been shot around here. Even the use of guns for threatening (e.g. in robberies) is rare enough.


I'd like to see your source for that, particularly since it's completely fictional. Handguns have not been freely available for an extremely long time. Even shotguns and rifles need a license, and if you walked around carrying one, the police would shoot you.

You think guns dont leave blood. Plus guns make noise, leave residue and they can find out what kind of gun it was and from their its usually very easy to trace. If you sneek up behind someone slit their throat and walk away youassuming you were wearing gloves, you have left virtually no DNA. If no one has been shot around their then that proves a knife is more effective for a stealthy kill.

[Fkeu'itan]

I too (obviously) live in the UK. A country where 'proper' guns (It will become clear why i say this later) are very, very difficult to get hold of. There is gun crime over here but the stats are very low. In comparison with a country with the US where guns are more freely available, there is a considerable difference.

As for the 'when the situation arises' mentality, let's consider a stand-off. Would it not be far better if those on the wrong side of the law had no weapons to shoot back with? And even if they did, arming both sides plus throwing in most likely frightened or adrenaline-filled armed civilians is just adding wood to the fire.

On the black market argument - It goes without saying that in a country where guns are being shipped in legally and are far liberally controlled, the black market with thrive much more as once legal guns which, under government control, would have a hefty pricetag are sold on the black market for a fraction of the price. Take a look at the AK-47 for example.

In this country, weapons are so difficult to get hold of that criminals are having to actually physically go to the countries where the weapons are produced and smuggle them back in through customs, a process that often fails. Also a process that is far more difficult than not having to go anywhere due to the weapons already being readily shipped into the country. The existance of a black market obviously means there is going to be more armed criminals, despite gun restrictions but if you have special armed sections of the police (as we do over here) who can deal with it in a professional and controlled way, surely that's much better than having reckless vigilante justice...?

But here comes the clincher.

I, somewhat ironically, own a weapon myself.

I own a sport air rifle.
If I were looking to commit an armed crime, I think i would be much more hesitant about trying to take on fully-automatic armed marksmen with a single-action air rifle that fires .22 metal pellets at a very low fire rate than I would with an automatic or semi-automatic assault rifle that can fire 600 7.62mm rounds per minute.

My gun is very low powered compared to some on the UK market and it still cost me a lot of money. The price of higher powered rifles in this country skyrockets to prices that the common criminal could most likely not afford, and even then they are not even in the same league as a large calibre weapon, such weapons that in the US can be bought for literally half the price of my rifle.

I can understand the 'guns for sport' argument completely, that's why I own mine. (I target shoot, I don't hunt.)
And I also obviously understand that most people who own a weapon of some description aren't looking to kill someone... But I don't feel the need to take it everywhere with me, (even though I couldn't, but that's besides the point) because I feel safe knowing that the gun laws are so well controlled in our country (although what I said previously may be somewhat contradictory) that virtually every single person around me is unarmed and that should a 'situation' ever arise, there will be people far, far, far better qualified to deal with the situation professionally than I personally ever could, arriving on the scene in seconds.

Don't get me wrong, our controlled system isn't 100% perfect, but in my opinion, it's a fair sight better than the US's (comparitively) liberal system.

[Woodsprite]

Domestic robbery with a weapon (usually a gun) automatically increases a sentence by... I think 15-20 years (not totally sure). Just a random fact to throw out. That's why you don't see as many armed robberies in America as unarmed.