Why God?

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

I believe in God because it suits me. I am a person who requires a certain level of spirituality so I choose to believe in God (or Goddess in my case). In the end, my life is better because I believe in God.

Since i am also agnostic, I aslo accept that no god may be a possibility. But since my religious beliefs do not influence the way I live (since i don't believe in scripture or any sort of religious dogma), believing in God does not harm. I prefer to live in a warm Universe where God exits, than a cold empty atheist Universe. In the end, if God doesn't exist, I haven't lost anything anyway.

It isn't as cold as you might think , you may step over to the "dark" side.. we have cookies

But seriously , I wouldn't call myself 100% atheist nor agnostic , the core of my beliefs lies within atheism , but I also believe in some kind of "god" as I described it in my first post in this thread , the only "god/goddess" I could consider existing and having influence is nature , actually the way Jake described it , with energy borrowed and given away again sounds most logical to me and that's what I believe in ,and not only since I've seen Avatar , the world we live in is infact a huge jar filled with energy , namely molecules and atoms that mix with each other , break off and mix with another pair of molecules and atoms , so it is an infinite cycle of life .

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

It isn't as cold as you might think , you may step over to the "dark" side.. we have cookies

But seriously , I wouldn't call myself 100% atheist nor agnostic , the core of my beliefs lies within atheism , but I also believe in some kind of "god" as I described it in my first post in this thread , the only "god/goddess" I could consider existing and having influence is nature....

To me it would be cold. Some people do not need or wish to believe in spirituality. but I do.

And effectively, nature as a whole is my God (or Goddess). the way I see the world is based purely on the natural world I see around me. in that sense, I am just as likely to come to the same conclusions about the physical word as any atheist.

Originally Posted by Human No More

I disagree. Because there is no supernatural, we are responsible for our own lives and our own actions. Everything we do is our choice. I can look up at the stars and be truly inspired, to want to do more, to go beyond this world.
Then there is the experience of love, of enjoying yourself and the time we have, not wasting it on the words of someone who really doesn't know and is just repeating ancient superstition.
The alternative would just be too depressing.

All I said in my previous post was purely my own opinion. so I openly accept and expect others to think differently about this.

Part of what you said actually shows you misunderstood what I said. I do not believe in scripture or the teachings of organised religion. I make up my own mind based my view of the natural world. I may use human created work as inspiration for my philosophical beliefs, such as fiction writing (in which I include all religious scripture) or even movies (which I regard as modern myhthlogy). Nobody tells me what to believe.

Ironically, if I suddenly changed my view now because of what you have said, I would be guilty of doing exactly what you have just told me not to do. i.e. believe what someone else told me to believe.

In fact my view of God is very close to Ewya in Avatar. But I have thought that way for at least twenty years, well before Avatar came out or was even written. Avatar has not confirmed , refuted or changed that belief. I just see it as an interesting piece of modern mythology that is consistent with my own spiritual and philosophical beliefs. There is no other movie that does that.

The question of free will can also be hotly disputed. I do not believe we are as free as some people would like to believe. We are very much restricted by our biology, our genes, our instincts and hormones. No man or woman is truly free.

In the end, you say that we all have free will. I agree with you whole heartedly. And I exercise that will to believe in God, in the same way you exercise that will to deny the existence of God. So I am exercising my free.
No one should tell me what to believe, whether it is a priest or an atheist.

More than everything else I believe in spirtual freedom. Everyone should be feel free believe what they like, whether they believe in God or not.

In fact, some Atheists frighten me these days. They are the the new crrusaders/conquistadors/inquisition/jihadists/fundamentalists of the modern age. Many arrogantly believe in the truth of their own faith (i.e. atheism) in the just in the same way as the inquisition forced their beliefs on others.

When I read some posts by some atheists, their words are just as full of anger, hate, ignorance and arrogance as those of the worst religious fundamentalists. Why would I want to adhere to a philosophy like that?

But I must stress that I recognise that most atheists do not fall into the description that I just described above. In fact most are open-minded and defend the idea of tolerant secular society, an idea that I fully support.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

Since i am also agnostic, I aslo accept that no god may be a possibility. But since my religious beliefs do not influence the way I live (since i don't believe in scripture or any sort of religious dogma), believing in God does not harm. I prefer to live in a warm Universe where God exits, than a cold empty atheist Universe. In the end, if God doesn't exist, I haven't lost anything anyway.

I disagree. Because there is no supernatural, we are responsible for our own lives and our own actions. Everything we do is our choice. I can look up at the stars and be truly inspired, to want to do more, to go beyond this world.
Then there is the experience of love, of enjoying yourself and the time we have, not wasting it on the words of someone who really doesn't know and is just repeating ancient superstition.
The alternative would just be too depressing.

[Taw Makto]

Why God? A two word question as profound as they come.

I have an interest in astronomy. When you accept the very nearly proven theory that everything you see started 14 billion years ago in an instant of unimaginable cataclysm, you're really on your way to accepting that there is a god. From there you examine all that is, physics, chemistry, biology....there is an order there that is simply not random. There is order to the universe. The next step is seeing how life is so insanely diverse, from the simplest microbe to the most complex mammal. Then you take note of the simple fact of being an aware human, aware of your life, your actions, the complexity of our civilization. And then, on top of all that, you acknowledge the ability to love. To care for another lifeform that is not you. To be able to put another's benefit ahead of your own. How, in the end of this chain of thought, can one not see the hand of some unimaginable and omnipotent being guiding the complexity of the detail, inspiring and enabling mere motes of consciousness such as ours to be what we are? I deeply believe in science, because science uncovers all for those that care to examine the existence of all that is. God is there. Somewhere, somehow. That's why.

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by Taw Makto

Why God? A two word question as profound as they come.

I have an interest in astronomy. When you accept the very nearly proven theory that everything you see started 14 billion years ago in an instant of unimaginable cataclysm, you're really on your way to accepting that there is a god. From there you examine all that is, physics, chemistry, biology....there is an order there that is simply not random. There is order to the universe. The next step is seeing how life is so insanely diverse, from the simplest microbe to the most complex mammal. Then you take note of the simple fact of being an aware human, aware of your life, your actions, the complexity of our civilization. And then, on top of all that, you acknowledge the ability to love. To care for another lifeform that is not you. To be able to put another's benefit ahead of your own. How, in the end of this chain of thought, can one not see the hand of some unimaginable and omnipotent being guiding the complexity of the detail, inspiring and enabling mere motes of consciousness such as ours to be what we are? I deeply believe in science, because science uncovers all for those that care to examine the existence of all that is. God is there. Somewhere, somehow. That's why.

So , if I am right , the first line you draw when you realize you are aware of yourself and your world is , that there must be an invisible whitebearded man flying around in the sky ?

[Human No More]

I completely disagree.

When you accept the very nearly proven theory that everything you see started 14 billion years ago in an instant of unimaginable cataclysm, you're really on your way to accepting that there is a god.

At ifirast, I was justs about to point out that you made a typo and forgot the word 'not', when I read the rest of your post.

Religious people claim the Earth is only a few thousand years old and that it was created by a being who somehow existed outside that fact. That's completely the opposite of established theories and evidence.

there is only order to the universe if you claim to see it. A perfect example:

Correlation does not imply causation as ANYONE who has done any science, research or statistics knows. It's the same for patterns. People try to see them where there are none. The human brain is excellent at pattern recognition and not particularly good at others such ass calculations.

Love is deep, yes, but at the most basic level it's just endorphins and appropriate receptors. Animals experience love too.

[Taw Makto]

I said nothing of an "invisible whitebearded man." The big mistake I think we make is that we make God in our image. My thesis is simple, really, and that is that organization, the antithesis of chaos, requires the direction of a consciousness. That is probably not the best word choice....one can go on to use a wide variety of metaphysical descriptions of a supreme being, many of which sound just as silly and demeaning as "invisible whitebearded man." It is very hard to describe "God, the Being." Clearly any being capable of organizing the universe so well that awareness is awakened in other beings....is an apex creator, shall we say. I think one phrase that I neglected to include in my brief description of "Why God," are three simple words: "In My Opinion." If God is there, He or She is there whether or not we individually choose to believe. In fact, I don't see God, I don't know where God might be, and I don't pursue any religion whatsoever. I am aware of the universe, and in that awareness I don't see God, but I do feel that I see the results of God's efforts. That implies the existence of God.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone, although I realize this is the debate forum. The question was posed: Why? Well, I offer up my version. It is not likely to work for everyone, and that's to be expected since we all see things through the filter of our own experiences.

Am I making sense....or just another word wall?

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by Taw Makto

I said nothing of an "invisible whitebearded man." The big mistake I think we make is that we make God in our image. My thesis is simple, really, and that is that organization, the antithesis of chaos, requires the direction of a consciousness. That is probably not the best word choice....one can go on to use a wide variety of metaphysical descriptions of a supreme being, many of which sound just as silly and demeaning as "invisible whitebearded man." It is very hard to describe "God, the Being." Clearly any being capable of organizing the universe so well that awareness is awakened in other beings....is an apex creator, shall we say. I think one phrase that I neglected to include in my brief description of "Why God," are three simple words: "In My Opinion." If God is there, He or She is there whether or not we individually choose to believe. In fact, I don't see God, I don't know where God might be, and I don't pursue any religion whatsoever. I am aware of the universe, and in that awareness I don't see God, but I do feel that I see the results of God's efforts. That implies the existence of God.

I'm not trying to persuade anyone, although I realize this is the debate forum. The question was posed: Why? Well, I offer up my version. It is not likely to work for everyone, and that's to be expected since we all see things through the filter of our own experiences.

Am I making sense....or just another word wall?

You are talking about an "anti-thesis to chaos" and order ,when we are pretty much slaughtering ourselves since thousands of years in conflicts all over the world ,bringing the world in general out of balance and you say there's some consciousness caring about what happens in our world ,trying to keep balance?

I don't know ,but you have missed the last periods of mankinds history if you think so ,but if god really exists , he just probably doesn't give a damn about this world (anymore?) .

[Human No More]

Organisation and chaos are both human definitions and both flawed. Neither is absolute, or even actually defined at all. Your argument is based on false logic, not just for that, but because you think that everything must have a cause. Some things happen, there's no reason behind it.

[Taw Makto]

One most important salient fact: I'm not arguing.

My description of why I think God exists works for me, which is why I clearly amended my commentary with "In My Opinion." It is but one option, and since it's not based on faith or other religious dogma, I am certainly open to further enlightenment.

This is the second time someone has put words in my mouth or thoughts in my minds. I did not state everything must have a cause.

Remember that the flip side of your statement is also true...sometimes things happen for a reason.

I guess it depends on which "things" you're talking about, eh?

But really...examining one's observations and concluding that there is a God does not imply in any way that said observations can determine the reason for them. I have no idea why the universe exists. That is another of the great mysteries...."Why" all by itself. And about that....I have no idea. Maybe it was just a wild and crazy urge that came over said supreme being 14 billion years ago. I would ask the counter question....Why ask Why?

Why not? Just enjoy!

And as for mankind and the garbaaage that's been going on? Irrelevant to the matters of simple existence. Mankind isn't even remotely a consideration....except for the fact that we've been given a rather unique thing. Free will. Whether we use that for universal good, universal evil, or some middle ground...it's just another thing that is marvelous to behold.

Did you guys get bad beer today or something? Why the harsh 'tudes?

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Taw Makto

I would ask the counter question....Why ask Why?

Why not? Just enjoy!

that's a good philosophy, but people need to understand too. I'm one of those people

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by Taw Makto

One most important salient fact: I'm not arguing.

My description of why I think God exists works for me, which is why I clearly amended my commentary with "In My Opinion." It is but one option, and since it's not based on faith or other religious dogma, I am certainly open to further enlightenment.

This is the second time someone has put words in my mouth or thoughts in my minds. I did not state everything must have a cause.

Remember that the flip side of your statement is also true...sometimes things happen for a reason.

I guess it depends on which "things" you're talking about, eh?

But really...examining one's observations and concluding that there is a God does not imply in any way that said observations can determine the reason for them. I have no idea why the universe exists. That is another of the great mysteries...."Why" all by itself. And about that....I have no idea. Maybe it was just a wild and crazy urge that came over said supreme being 14 billion years ago. I would ask the counter question....Why ask Why?

Why not? Just enjoy!

I'd like to ask you some question , how did your supreme being come to existence ,since everything must have a creator in some way , or did he just think like "oh ,maybe I'll come to existance and create a world out of nothing".

I'd like to hear your statement .

[Gunny]

Taw Makto, I understand exactly what you are saying and I will say I feel very similar to you regarding the things you have said.

[Taw Makto]

Originally Posted by fkeua vrrtep

I'd like to ask you some question , how did your supreme being come to existence ,since everything must have a creator in some way , or did he just think like "oh ,maybe I'll come to existance and create a world out of nothing".

I'd like to hear your statement .

Well, can you answer me which came first, the chicken or the egg?

What you're questioning is something that I would suggest is a hierarchy of deity. If you've got a big enough imagination, we can play with that.

I don't have an answer, but your question is wonderfully sensible. And my statement, not my belief, not my faith, is that we need to think beyond this universe in order to "go there." And this suggests that God is but one being of another universe, a universe where the conscious entities are all Gods. This super-universe would, of course, have some rules. And those rules may include a beginning much like our Big Bang. Of course, in that case, there would be a GOD that would have created their universe, dismissed chaos and brought about sufficient order that the Gods could evolve. Ridiculous? Perhaps. This is only a thought experiment....taking what seems on the surface to make sense. It has holes, and is certainly not something that a lot of people can deal with. It does take a big imagination...but then again, if we can play with multiple dimensions in science fiction, multiple timelines, and all that those mental exercises entail, surely we can deal with the fact that the chicken lays the egg that becomes the chicken that lays the egg that becomes the chicken that lays the egg......and so on. Infinity is.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Taw Makto

Well, can you answer me which came first, the chicken or the egg?

I can. It's the egg, chickens are descended from dinosaurs (ironically, IIRC they're actually the closest related surviving species)

This super-universe would, of course, have some rules. And those rules may include a beginning much like our Big Bang. Of course, in that case, there would be a GOD that would have created their universe, dismissed chaos and brought about sufficient order that the Gods could evolve.

Not necessarily. That universe could be like ours...