Why God?

[fkeua vrrtep]

Originally Posted by Taw Makto

Well, can you answer me which came first, the chicken or the egg?

What you're questioning is something that I would suggest is a hierarchy of deity. If you've got a big enough imagination, we can play with that.

I don't have an answer, but your question is wonderfully sensible. And my statement, not my belief, not my faith, is that we need to think beyond this universe in order to "go there." And this suggests that God is but one being of another universe, a universe where the conscious entities are all Gods. This super-universe would, of course, have some rules. And those rules may include a beginning much like our Big Bang. Of course, in that case, there would be a GOD that would have created their universe, dismissed chaos and brought about sufficient order that the Gods could evolve. Ridiculous? Perhaps. This is only a thought experiment....taking what seems on the surface to make sense. It has holes, and is certainly not something that a lot of people can deal with. It does take a big imagination...but then again, if we can play with multiple dimensions in science fiction, multiple timelines, and all that those mental exercises entail, surely we can deal with the fact that the chicken lays the egg that becomes the chicken that lays the egg that becomes the chicken that lays the egg......and so on. Infinity is.

You didn't quite understand my question I guess , my question was how your "god" came to existance , you know things don't just happen to exist , everything needs someone or something that created it , like a car or whatever , and about the big bang , there had to be something that inniciated the big bang , big bangs don't come out of nothing , like dynamite doesn't explode until you put the components together and light it up .

And even if your god came to existance through other gods , how did those gods came to existance ? Do you get what I want to know ? I want to know what the beginning was , not if the chicken or the egg was first , I want to know how they came to existance , what came before them , since I'm a logic thinking person this is probably the only question I can't answer for myself , everything has to have a beginning and a creator , things don't just come to existance without an "inniciator" .

So once again , how did your god come to existance , and maybe the gods too who created him , which would make it quite a endless chain of gods who created each other (for what purpose ever) , which is quite a ridiculous idea since somewhere had to be a start ,but then you cand raw parallels to all lifeforms that just couldn't just happen to exist , so technically we shouldn't be existing since we could not have created ourselves , but then we do exist , one reason why I don't believe in a god is that god would have been created too in some way , which seems to me impossible .

[Taw Makto]

I'll add this for you, Human No More....I started a bit of a posting storm here, and while it's interesting, it's also a bit confusing as to whom I'm replying to.

The Big Bang can be used for both the proof that God does not exist or that He does.

Please keep one thing clear here: I am not arguing for any religion on this planet, real or the product of fertile fiction. I believe in no religion. Zero, zip, nada. We are talking about God. That one three letter pronoun is not exclusive to the faithful that believe the universe if 4,000 years old.

Given the train of inquiry that leads one to discover the Big Bang, one continues with "How?" Not necessarily "Why?"

It can go either way. Perhaps there was indeed a wild party of the deities 14 billion Sol years ago, and some wise guy decided to liven things up in their universe by setting off a really big cherry bomb. Or perhaps there is a cycle of Big Bangs and Big Crunches. Or something else....

What I meant by being on the way to a realization of God is simply this: if you ask how the Big Bang happened, you're thinking big enough to ask if there is or isn't a God.

Apologies if my all too brief thesis lacked sufficient qualifiers....I didn't really expect to defend the train of thought in debate form. That, of course, is my bad entirely.

Oops!

By the way...

Originally Posted by Human No More

Not necessarily. That universe could be like ours...

Sure. I agree. It could go either way there too....just as confusing and without definitive knowledge of God/Gods as our own slice of existence.
__________________

By the by the way.....time for pizza.....please pardon while I excuse myself from this discussion.

[Taw Makto]

We ask ourselves the question, how did we come to be? We blame a god. How did that god come to be? We blame another god? I agree, it's either a very big question, or a very silly one. I do not claim to know, or have a rational explanation to answer your question. I can think deep, and I can think big, not that my grasp is accurate or perfect.

I believe somewhere in Einstein's rather heady math that he describes all space as curved. That is likely an imperfect paraphrase. But I have heard the analogy that if you could see an infinite distance, you'd see the back of your head. One of my favorite science fiction stories ever is Robert A. Heinlein's "By His Bootstraps," in which the main character is, in turn, himself, his mother and his father, if I recall correctly.

We humans are constantly evolving. Perhaps at some point it's possible, if we don't destroy ourselves, a hobby we seem to be pretty good at, we'll attain the power to be gods ourselves. And beget new life....that will be able to eventually evolve to our level, etc. Perhaps this is a circular cycle, with time or some other dimension of space bringing the loop together, and perhaps somewhere far down the cycle our descendant gods create our own antecedent. It's a stretch, and one that is far more philosophical and imaginative than the certain answer that would satisfy the needs of a debate.

In short, I don't pretend to know. I do know that existence likely extends beyond the mere cosmos of galaxies that we can observe or scientifically postulate to exist. There's more mystery than can ever be resolved by debate. Your question is interesting....but while I wish I knew, I don't. All I can do is guess, and frankly, that goes for god, gods, God or even Eyewa. One can discuss God. I doubt one can prove God. I conclude that supersedes any debate. Your interpretation may be different, and I acknowledge and accept that. Interesting conversation, though!

[rapunzel77]

After reading the posts on this thread for a bit, I want to clear up just a few misunderstandings.

Those of us who have a fervent belief in God do not see him as an "old man with a beard." That is an artistic representation. Some religions believe that God has revealed to us that He is father, ie. the creator, etc. However, we believe that He is a pure spirit and that He is the one who created the universe. Are there other universes? We don't know. Its a fascinating subject but I don't know if we will ever know all the mysteries of the universe. In fact, I believe that to be impossible. There is still so much to learn.


Those with fervent, religious belief are very diverse, even within their religions. I'm a Catholic. I belong to the Christian religion. In Christianity, there are at least 3 major branches (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant) but there are also a tons of others in between. We do have a variety of belief. Not all of us believe that the universe was created in 6 days, etc.

I am curious, especially for those of you who don't have any religious belief or are atheists. How many of you have been or are friends with people with fervent religious belief? The reason why I ask is because there seems to be some misunderstanding, in some of the posts, regarding the beliefs of certain religious people.

I think it is important, very important in fact to have these kinds of discussions. One of the saddest problems we face in the political and the religious realm is the inability to speak and learn from each other. Sure, we don't have to agree with the others belief or convictions but it is extremely important to give the person respect, regardless of their position. In this way, a better sense of fraternity and love will prevail.

We are striving hard to make TOS a welcoming, friendly community and I am thankful to the administrators for allowing us to FULLY express ourselves, including discussing our religious beliefs or the lack thereof. It is part of who and what we all are. Part of becoming a community is knowing the persons or persons in their fullness. That way, each of us will know where the person is coming from. There is a diverse amount of worldviews and beliefs on this board which makes for lively discussions . I'm enjoying it and I hope the rest of you do too. Please continue to make this board friendly and welcoming while allowing everyone to fully express themselves.

[stdout]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

I am curious, especially for those of you who don't have any religious belief or are atheists. How many of you have been or are friends with people with fervent religious belief? The reason why I ask is because there seems to be some misunderstanding, in some of the posts, regarding the beliefs of certain religious people.

I think all my friends are atheists, except one who describes himself as 'agnostic' (though speaking to him it's quite obvious this is just because he doesn't want to offend anyone). I tend not to say anything specific about any religions, since I've never looked into them in any depth, having been an atheist since about the age of 10.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

I am curious, especially for those of you who don't have any religious belief or are atheists. How many of you have been or are friends with people with fervent religious belief? The reason why I ask is because there seems to be some misunderstanding, in some of the posts, regarding the beliefs of certain religious people.

My family are mildly religious if you go back to the oldest generation (grandparents), but my parents aren't. I've only ever known one really religious person, and he was fairly open minded, but I didn't really discuss it much. Everyone I actually know (IRL) who I know their views range from unsure to atheist, to a couple believe different things (e.g. Norse, one person who I've talked to a few times seems to have some level of belief in the ancient Egyptian gods). Not many metalheads are christians

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by Human No More

My family are mildly religious if you go back to the oldest generation (grandparents), but my parents aren't. I've only ever known one really religious person, and he was fairly open minded, but I didn't really discuss it much. Everyone I actually know (IRL) who I know their views range from unsure to atheist, to a couple believe different things (e.g. Norse, one person who I've talked to a few times seems to have some level of belief in the ancient Egyptian gods). Not many metalheads are christians

Very interesting . Especially about the fella who has a mixture of Egyptian and Norse beliefs. While its true that there are very few metalheads who are Christians, it isn't totally impossible. I have very eclectic musical tastes. I appreciate some metal. Some of my favorite bands include Led Zeppelin and Metallica .

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

Very interesting . Especially about the fella who has a mixture of Egyptian and Norse beliefs.

I meant, as in 2 different people, not one with a mixture

While its true that there are very few metalheads who are Christians, it isn't totally impossible. I have very eclectic musical tastes. I appreciate some metal. Some of my favorite bands include Led Zeppelin and Metallica .

Fair enough, but I doubt you'll find many fans of Slayer or Deicide are christian, for example. It depends what

[Grif]

I like to describe myself as a radical atheist. I use the term "radical" rather loosely though, it's really just there to show that this is something that I have thought over very thoroughly. You wouldn't believe how many times people have asked if I meant agnostic.

Why atheist? I read a lot of Douglas Adams and his speeches (which I read in the Salmon of Doubt) won me over. I came from a mildly catholic family, but no one was specifically against it.

This is not to say that I am not open to the idea of a god, it means that I am convinced there is not a god. This also means I am not open to the many benefits of religion.

I want to talk about Feng Shui, which is something I know very little about, but there's been a lot of talk about it recently in terms of figuring out how a building should be designed, built, situated, decorated and so on. Apparently, we need to think about the building being inhabited by dragons and look at it in terms of how a dragon would move around it. So, if a dragon wouldn't be happy in the house, you have to put a red fish bowl here or a window there. This sounds like complete and utter nonsense, because anything involving dragons must be nonsense - there aren't any dragons, so any theory based on how dragons behave is nonsense. What are these silly people doing, imagining that dragons can tell you how to build your house? Nevertheless, it occurs to me if you disregard for a moment the explanation that's actually offered for it, it may be there is something interesting going on that goes like this: we all know from buildings that we've lived in, worked in, been in or stayed in, that some are more comfortable, more pleasant and more agreeable to live in than others. We haven't had a real way of quantifying this, but in this century we've had an awful lot of architects who think they know how to do it, so we've had the horrible idea of the house as a machine for living in, we've had Mies van der Roe and others putting up glass stumps and strangely shaped things that are supposed to form some theory or other. It's all carefully engineered, but nonetheless, their buildings are not actually very nice to live in. An awful lot of theory has been poured into this, but if you sit and work with an architect (and I've been through that stressful time, as I'm sure a lot of people have) then when you are trying to figure out how a room should work you're trying to integrate all kinds of things about lighting, about angles, about how people move and how people live - and an awful lot of other things you don't know about that get left out. You don't know what importance to attach to one thing or another; you're trying to, very consciously, figure out something when you haven't really got much of a clue, but there's this theory and that theory, this bit of engineering practice and that bit of architectural practice; you don't really know what to make of them. Compare that to somebody who tosses a cricket ball at you. You can sit and watch it and say, 'It's going at 17 degrees'; start to work it out on paper, do some calculus, etc. and about a week after the ball's whizzed past you, you may have figured out where it's going to be and how to catch it. On the other hand, you can simply put your hand out and let the ball drop into it, because we have all kinds of faculties built into us, just below the conscious level, able to do all kinds of complex integrations of all kinds of complex phenomena which therefore enables us to say, 'Oh look, there's a ball coming; catch it!'

What I'm suggesting is that Feng Shui and an awful lot of other things are precisely of that kind of problem. There are all sorts of things we know how to do, but don't necessarily know what we do, we just do them. Go back to the issue of how you figure out how a room or a house should be designed and instead of going through all the business of trying to work out the angles and trying to digest which genuine architectural principles you may want to take out of what may be a passing architectural fad, just ask yourself, 'how would a dragon live here?' We are used to thinking in terms of organic creatures; an organic creature may consist of an enormous complexity of all sorts of different variables that are beyond our ability to resolve but we know how organic creatures live. We've never seen a dragon but we've all got an idea of what a dragon is like, so we can say, 'Well if a dragon went through here, he'd get stuck just here and a little bit cross over there because he couldn't see that and he'd wave his tail and knock that vase over'. You figure out how the dragon's going to be happy here and lo and behold! you've suddenly got a place that makes sense for other organic creatures, such as ourselves, to live in.

So, my argument is that as we become more and more scientifically literate, it's worth remembering that the fictions with which we previously populated our world may have some function that it's worth trying to understand and preserve the essential components of, rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water; because even though we may not accept the reasons given for them being here in the first place, it may well be that there are good practical reasons for them, or something like them, to be there. I suspect that as we move further and further into the field of digital or artificial life we will find more and more unexpected properties begin to emerge out of what we see happening and that this is a precise parallel to the entities we create around ourselves to inform and shape our lives and enable us to work and live together.

[Txantsulsam Fyawintxu]

Why God?


Why not?

[Sight]

I'm not religious, and I find any dogmatic belief system against my personal beliefs. However, I do hold spiritual beliefs. Why a "god"? I must ask why not? Does this "god" have to be the Abrahamic "God", or is this a matter of pure spirituality? If this is a matter of spirituality, and therefore a connection to, or a belief in, something "more", then what is the harm in that? I find it quite easy to dismiss opposing beliefs from the comfort of the Vatican, or the stark cleanliness of a Lab or Auditorium. However, if one dismisses the possibility of something beyond the mundane by the word of a man, is it not the same as accepting the certainty of one belief system by the word of a different man? Either way, live and let live I suppose. In my experience, however, I feel there is something more to this life. What this can be, or even if I may simply be misguided, does not matter to me. I find unending hubris in both the snide remarks of the papacy as well as the smarmy self-dignification of some scholars who see nothing but the mundane. I live my life, and at times I feel that there is something more. This does not render me ignorant, or even preclude me from understanding scientific principles. It is far too easy to declare something as fictional when one does not seek out the evidence. It is far too easy to declare aspects of Mankind ignorant, stupid, or backwards from the pedestal modern society places itself upon.

[neytirifanboy]

Well said Sight. I am with you on this one.

[Fosus]

Me too, well said Sight.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

In fact, some Atheists frighten me these days. They are the the new crrusaders/conquistadors/inquisition/jihadists/fundamentalists of the modern age. Many arrogantly believe in the truth of their own faith (i.e. atheism) in the just in the same way as the inquisition forced their beliefs on others.

When I read some posts by some atheists, their words are just as full of anger, hate, ignorance and arrogance as those of the worst religious fundamentalists. Why would I want to adhere to a philosophy like that?

But I must stress that I recognise that most atheists do not fall into the description that I just described above. In fact most are open-minded and defend the idea of tolerant secular society, an idea that I fully support.

I don't understand where these kind of impressions are coming from. Why would anyone use atheism as a weapon, because it's simply the absence of faith, in other words, empty. Atheism has nothing to do with faith or believing in anything, because by the definition it would have to have some sort of "thing" to believe in.

I think it's some sort of misunderstanding, because what I think most atheists(myself included) want, is to diminish the value of religious authority. Personal beliefs are fine and we all have them, even if they are not religious.

In the end we should all learn to think for ourselves and listen to our hearts, because no one else can ever tell you what is truly right or wrong.

[rapunzel77]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Aquaplant

I don't understand where these kind of impressions are coming from. Why would anyone use atheism as a weapon, because it's simply the absence of faith, in other words, empty. Atheism has nothing to do with faith or believing in anything, because by the definition it would have to have some sort of "thing" to believe in.

I understand that most atheists are not that way but I have encountered some that go out of their way to insult my beliefs when I have done nothing to insult theirs. Thankfully, that isn't the case on TOS .

I think it's some sort of misunderstanding, because what I think most atheists(myself included) want, is to diminish the value of religious authority. Personal beliefs are fine and we all have them, even if they are not religious.

This might be where the crux of the conflict arises from. Obviously my religious beliefs, etc has no bearing on you. That's fine. We do have a religious structure and that is something that my religion can't get rid of. Since this is the case, it maybe very difficult for "religious authority" to be diminished. Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by that statement though.

Do you mean that you don't want religious beliefs forced on you or do you believe that no public expression of religion need to be exhibited anywhere?

Or do you mean that you don't want religious people to express their views in public and allow all voices to be heard in the public or political arena?

I don't think that most Christians (myself included) would want to force our beliefs on anyone. I know there are a few that do and they tend to talk to much. However, I guess what I am saying is that I would like to see a society where someone is not afraid to express themselves in a religious manner. I would allow for all religions to express themselves in public. I think that to much expression would be better than none.

I also believe there is a whole lot of misunderstanding in how this is to be applied. There are so very strange stories that pop up in the news at times about this. There was one story where a small boy was told in class to draw his favorite hero, etc and he decided to draw Jesus and he was told he couldn't do that.

There are others but you probably can see what I mean. It seems that in this area in particular we are very afraid to mention it. Its funny but religion is being treated almost the way sex was treated several decades ago. It wasn't something that you discussed or mentioned in public.

So, I'm curious and I would like to get a better understanding where you and other atheists are coming from on this matter in particular.

In the end we should all learn to think for ourselves and listen to our hearts, because no one else can ever tell you what is truly right or wrong.

I agree with this statement in part. We should learn to think for ourselves and listen to our hearts. However, we will probably differ on the last part of your statement .