Who are we?

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by Eltu

[I][SIZE="1"]Our bodies are made up of billions of cells... each cell, a living organism in itself. Together they form a larger consciousness, a human being. We, in turn, are also living organisms - and like the cells... together, are we all a part of another, larger consciousness?

The cells of our body lack the physical senses to understand that they are a part of something larger. Are we the same? Do our physical senses prevent us from understanding the real state of the world, of our universe – because we are blinded by thinking that they are all we have?

Interesting. I have always looked at our existence in the way you describe above. If I hit my own arm, I will effectivley cause a disaster that will kill countless cells. Although I feel a little pain, that incident does not bother me. But it does make me consider the nature of God. I can affect the health of the individual cells by the way I live. To each individual cell in my body, I am an immortal God. But even as the living God of my own body, I am also ultimately mortal and ruled by the laws of nature.

Originally Posted by Devourment

In short, we're highly intelligent mammals who like to think we have purpose other than reproduction.

Yes, agreed. This is effectively what we are. This is what we will always be.

But I also like to believe that we effectively part of the Universe's self-conciousness. By having consciounsess ourselves we naturally try to understand the Universe in which we live. That does not mean we are chosen or unique, we just are. So in a sense, I do not believe that the eyes of God are looking at us, but that in fact in some way we are the eyes of God, or more acurately, one of the many eyes of God.

The problem for humanity in understanding the Universe is that we are extremely inward-looking (an Avatar is equally an inward looking movie). We always judge and assess the Universe in human terms. This is ultimately true with religion which is human-centric. But science is not much better as everything we do or study relates to ourselves in some way or form. Just about every scientific asks the same question (although these questions branch out into more complexity): "Where do we come from? Who are we? How are we like other animals? Where are we going?

This means that we may be missing very important or useful information because we do not have the perception to see things beyond our own existence. Unfortuntaly, we will never proceed if we can look at the Unverse more ojectively. And we are not at that stage yet.

[Mune]

Earth.
Made up of so much life... sentient life... is this life a part of something larger? We cannot grasp this using our physical senses - but yet we feel, know that there IS something. What is this, that makes us aware who we truly are?

Oh if only I knew the true answer to this question. There's SO much to question. Ultimately we want to come to a conclusion that isn't bias in any way. Or a decision that has been influenced.

Now- Organised religion is instantly crossed off the list because you're told what exists and how to worship it. Science is the same, with the exception of we are given 'evidence' that is perceivable with every one of our five senses. Ultimately it comes down to not using 'words' to try and find this thing. Mysticism, or MY personal version of mysticism, [I'm getting to a point where I'm making my own meaning for words, try and stop me. ] is probably the most important thing in my life at the moment.

Well, there's no 'probably' about it. Ultimately we have to find our answered without being influenced by what we have been brainwashed with.

The cells of our bodies... they are lifeforms, but don't have any senses like we do - they cannot hear, think, they cannot see... yet, somehow our very cells have a memory of their own – they fill a purpose, every single part inside the cell does a specific task – yet lacks the physical senses to do so. The physical cell alone could not do what our cells actually do – they do something more, something beyond their physical capabilities. Why is this?

Mm, but can we say that they don't have any of the five senses? In the body, every cell must work, otherwise there's problems. Much like the human race. If in a team, one person isn't contributing- It can hugely effect the outcome.

I could entertain myself for years questioning 'Why' cells do what they do. Not 'How' but 'Why'. (and probably will question it for the rest of my life)

Ultimately there's something out of our perception visage. [If that's the right word]

If you've ever heard the quote "You can only see when your eyes are closed.", it brings a whole new meaning to the proverb.

One by one, they could never have this ability - but all together, connected into forming one human being, they take part of this greater consciousness that is us. Our cells share our consciousness - and this gives every individual cell things that lies beyond its physical senses.

Us.
Many humans on Earth have a feeling there is something greater, something more - yet our physical senses tells us this is not the case. But we STILL have this feeling. We feel things that lies beyond our physical senses.

An explanation for this, would be that ALL life is a part of a greater consciousness - Earth. We are the very living organisms that is a part of Earth - just like our cells are the living organisms that makes us.

We can feel that there is something greater - because we are a PART of it.

Indeed. Every human knows that there's something weird about the fact that they can see, that they are conscious- (Although some refuse to admit it and cover it up quite nicely)

But ultimately, atoms could be Universes, our entire Universe could be a neutron. Who knows... It's mind-blowing. Considering this world, all energy is interconnected. No energy can be made or destroyed, only changed from one form to another... Known by Scientists as "Conservation of Energy"... It's interesting. Questioning why the energy is there in the first place.

Watching that video - and realizing the insane complexity of our existence fills me with awe, but also with a great sadness. All of this, happens BILLIONS of times right now, inside me, inside all of us... and I sit here and drink Coke and type on my computer? It feels like... life is so wonderful, like all life is meant for something - and we are wasting that away... Every single lifeform is a masterpiece, something to deeply respect and appreciate.

There is so much... and it feels like we should appreciate and respect this so much more.

Agreed. The video really hits a point. It makes me realise how amazing this reality is... So many trillions of puzzle pieces and we've found not even one yet. On the grand scale of the Universe, we know how nothing works... Science constantly contradicts itself. Don't even get me started on organised-religion, and.. Yeah.

Seems the only one you can trust is yourself. But even then... Hm...

It's a case of the chance of your existence being infinitely small. The number is too small to even comprehend, yet here you are. You had 1/1000000 chance to come into existence from your fathers sperm... [To put it lightly], and you were the fastest... And if that's not a small enough chance, you wouldn't of been born if your parents hadn't been, and their parents, and their parents, and it goes on.

I've gotten to a point where I just think that nothing is 'luck' or coincidence any more, everything happens for a reason.

Without purpose, an item does not exist. Nor an organism.

[auroraglacialis]

Eltu, what you describe is indeed fascinating and it intersects in many ways with the gaia theory and its more spiritual interpretations. The Gaia Theory states, that the Earth as a whole acts like an organism with all life on it acting like parts of that organism. The way I see it, individual lifeforms are like cells, ecosystems are like organs, water and air is like the blood, the solid earth is the skeleton. The organs communicate with each other and regulate each other and the whole system. Life on Earth made Earth habitable in the first place. The first algae produced oxygen and thereby eventuall the basis for other life. At some point there was enough oxygen to form an ozone layer and land was populated by life. If it was not for life on Earth, it would not be habitable by life.
This is a fascinating topic and I studied some of this in a more scientific context in university (Earth History and Earth System Science) - and the scientific look was not really always focussed on humans, the approach was rather wide.
However I do not really believe in a sentient Gaia that can control these systems, but the systems can react.
The notion that humans are like a virus came up on several occasions (once even in a scientific debate I took part in). Recently I revised that comparison and came to the conclusion that if anything, human civilization is like a cancer. Humans are part of the Earth, they are no intruder like a virus would be in an organism. Humans are harmless to Earth by themselves, they have been part of the system for millions of years. But the concept of civilization was a dangerous one - and it seems that some aspects of it have turned against the whole organism, taking over large parts of it, growing without control. Humans have destroyed or diminished some of the "organs" and thereby diminished the systems ability to heal or to regulate itself. Did you know that humans move around as much earth and soil and rocks as the earth itself by all natural processes? Someone said, global warming is like a fever - an attempt of the regulatory systems to eradicate the illness/danger/cancer that is human civilization.

So, I think we are part of a larger system. One that is obviously bigger than we ourselves, but some things we do threaten that bigger system or beeing (if you are more inclined to believe in a more sentient version of "Gaia").

Well - this is how I see it currently.

[Advent]

Humans. Though so many doubt it, we might as well be the most advanced sentient species in the milky way.
SWEET!
But, our 'purpose' in life, has always been a mystery. Scientifically, we live to reproduce. Religiously, we live to worship our deities. But, no matter what we do, things don't change.
We live lives of up to 70 to 100 years. We could become leaders, or scientists, and make breakthroughs or revolutions. But when we die, nothing has really changed. We're essentially just 'paving the road' for the next generation.

[Eltu]

I should add that my above statement doesn't hold true for everyone. Obviously different people enjoys different things - but I do believe that humanity as a whole could be much happier if we sought other kinds of knowledge.

My opinion, and nobody has to agree - but there it is.

[Human No More]

Knowledge brings happiness. Look out at the universe, and it is the most beautiful thing on Earth. Living on fear and superstition prevents people form understanding something, and it is only by understanding anything that you can appreciate it fully.

[Fkeu'itan]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Knowledge brings happiness. Look out at the universe, and it is the most beautiful thing on Earth. Living on fear and superstition prevents people form understanding something, and it is only by understanding anything that you can appreciate it fully.

I think maybe you have defeated your own argument with these lines.

You look to the stars, and you see beauty, you feel wonder not because you think "I know exactly what's up there." But you think "I wonder what's out there..." Your mind begins to run riot with all the possibilities, however, if all the possibilities are known, there is nowhere for your mind to wander any longer.

As for what Theorist said, I believe that was an excellent post, and I would agree most definitely. If you feel that there is something else, that you know there is something underlying, it is foolish to ignore that feeling. Allowing it to guide you is another matter, but I personally allow it to do so, just as I would allow my eyes to lead me forwards or allow my ears to tell me of dangers or interest... Because it is - in basic terms - one sense in a set of very few that allow me to actually, tangibly experience the world, to interpret it.

Different people have different ideas of what lies beneath, but I believe we all have tht feeling. Scientists believe there is a single, unified code that lies beneath, that it unlocks the power and governs everything, the religious believe there is something more in the form of a 'god', or an embodiment of what they feel. The spiritual seek to find energies and flows to life, hidden nuances that guide them. But fundamentally, every single one of us as humans feels 'something more'. It's just down to us how we choose interpret it, understand it or quantify it personally... And what each way can offer us in terms of feeling we understand.

[iron_jones]

IMHO, we are nothing more than highly intelligent beings who screw and make more of us and then die.

And also...

WE ARE, WE ARE ALL INNOCENT

[Pa'li Makto]

I think we are part of a bigger picture and that picture is mother nature /Gaia/ Earth.

[Eltu]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Knowledge brings happiness. Look out at the universe, and it is the most beautiful thing on Earth. Living on fear and superstition prevents people form understanding something, and it is only by understanding anything that you can appreciate it fully.

I know that you see it that way - and that others may do, too - but I don't. I think it's the pure opposite, "understanding" something by scientific means robs it of its true beauty. Just look at love - it's made into a series of numbers, chemical reactions... until all that makes it beautiful is forever lost.

That's my opinion, anyway - but yeah, we got different ones. Let's respect that and leave it at that.

Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto

I think we are part of a bigger picture and that picture is mother nature /Gaia/ Earth.

Then, we agree.

[Aquaplant]

Originally Posted by Eltu

I know that you see it that way - and that others may do, too - but I don't. I think it's the pure opposite, "understanding" something by scientific means robs it of its true beauty. Just look at love - it's made into a series of numbers, chemical reactions... until all that makes it beautiful is forever lost.

That's my opinion, anyway - but yeah, we got different ones. Let's respect that and leave it at that.

But how on earth does understanding something mean one can't enjoy it anymore? Isn't it better when you understand what brings you happiness?

[Raiden]

We were part of a bigger picture.

The moment that the majority of humankind started living in cities, that came to an end.

Humanity has ceased evolution as a species and separated itself from the vital control system that is our biosphere, and soon we will pay very dearly for that.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Raiden

Humanity has ceased evolution as a species and separated itself from the vital control system that is our biosphere, and soon we will pay very dearly for that.

How on earth do you figure that we've STOPPED evolving? As a species in our current form, we're only....what, a few hundred thousand years old? A hundred thousand years old? If that. We've lived in cities for a few thousand years. We're still mutating, still changing - if nothing else, modern medicine means that babies who would have been too big to fit through their mother's birth-canal are now walking around as adults, having children of their own. Other people who would otherwise die thanks to illness and disease are surviving, passing their genes on, keeping mutations in the gene pool.

(Unless you are suggesting that we stop having modern medicine, so we go back to 'survival of the fittest', and let an awful lot of people die...?)

Just because in the past few DECADES more people are living in cities than not doesn't mean we've stopped mutating genetically. And at the heart of it, that's all evolution really is.

[Raiden]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

How on earth do you figure that we've STOPPED evolving?

Evolution, by definition, is the process by which a species "improves" itself by having certain traits selected for by random events that allow that specific trait to propagate itself.

We are not doing that.

Evolution is not genetic mutation; genetic mutation is merely one of the vehicles by which evolution might occur. In order for a genetic mutation to cause evolution, it must do something to improve that single animal's quality of life.

For example, imagine a population of day geckos (genus Phelsuma ;D ). Day geckos are lizards that forage for insects in trees in jungles.

Now, let's say that one male gecko, by chance, has a mutation occur that causes a keratin buildup in the skin of its upper jaw. This would make the upper jaw harden, and appear almost like a beak.

Now let's say that this single gecko makes it to adulthood, and learns to use the "beak" to tear apart rotten wood to look for insects. This gecko would then be exploited two food sources, and therefore be more desirable as a mating partner than other males.

If this male manages to mate, and this trait is passed on and expressed, then you'll maybe wind up with a couple more of these "beaked" geckos. If these geckos also use this trait successfully, and there are no natural disasters to interrupt its new strategy, then that right there is evolution; a genetic mutation has given a trait that is beneficial to an individual animal, and that animal passes it to its offspring.

If that animal's offspring make it, then speciation, the emergence of a new species, could occur.

Genetic mutations alone do not cause evolution unless they confer a desirable, heritable trait to that animal's offspring.

The use of medicine to save children with genetic differences or defects deters evolution, because the other side of evolution, or natural selection, is that individuals with different traits that confer significant disadvantages usually die, almost never mate, and may have bad gametes.

The vehicle of evolution is not keeping mutations in the gene pool, it is the perpetuation of certain "mutations" in the pool that stick around because they are useful and the removal of other mutations that vanish because they are disadvantageous or outright fatal.

So yes, in order for us to continue evolving, healthcare for deformed and defective babies would need to cease, and they might even need to be killed.

On the other hand, we don't need to evolve any more. What could we possibly need that we don't already have? Being a race of sentient, sapient beings, all we need to do is limit the population to conserve the health of the rest of the planet. Evolving further would be pointless now.

Besides, I'd rather not start killing off Down's Syndrome babies. Eugenics is a dangerous and morally slippery slope into madness.

[Moco Loco]

Originally Posted by Raiden

The use of medicine to save children with genetic differences or defects deters evolution, because the other side of evolution, or natural selection, is that individuals with different traits that confer significant disadvantages usually die, almost never mate, and may have bad gametes.

In societies without proper healthcare, I wouldn't really say evolution has stopped. I know that's a tiny example, but it punches a hole through your argument anyway. I guess other than that, you're right, evolution has stopped, but I do not at all think we are done changing as a species.