Ways To Cope With The Depression Of The Dream Of Pandora Being Intangible.

[Human No More]

That's part of it, but it really isn't the main message... Avatar would still have done very little without the actual action, the epicness, the very scale of it... There are millions of films there that tell 'your brain to shut up for a moment' but they don't do anything like Avatar does.
It's Pandora itself... it's Neytiri... it's the Na'vi... it's all that and more.

[Tsyal Makto]

Well the Na'vi are supposed to be our higher selves, the human essence in all it's pure, uncorrupted beauty. Other movies have tried to bring out the human essence in a similar way before, it's just that none have ever hit the mark the same way Avatar has.

Originally Posted by Loverofnature

Very, very well said, both of you

i agree, or i do now, after reading

i wish the things didn't go like you just described Fkeu... sadly they do, nothing i can do about it, though i wish i could


again, well said guys

Originally Posted by ISV Venture Star

Yes, this is what stuck with me, what pulled me back to the cinema so many times... everything else is great, but this part is so beguiling and beautiful. I want it to be real, to be real for me.

You can make it real, you just need to have the strength to fight for it. We've all seen what life has the potential to be, yet also what life has unfortunately become. We all see the chains that bind us, but we've also been given the strength to break them. It's time we take back our own lives from this evil, controlling world, and fight for the lives we truly want.

It's time for a brave new world, built by the power of our dreams, not the corrupt, enslaving wishes of the world. This is a spiritual war (as Tyler Durden says in my sig), between us and society, between a life of freedom and a life of societal servitude. Time to gather our forces, our hearts and souls. Avatar has given us the strength and vision, let's use it.

Originally Posted by Sempu

Agreed. The winner of the rat race is still a rat.

Amen, ma tsmukan.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

Well the Na'vi are supposed to be our higher selves, the human essence in all it's pure, uncorrupted beauty. Other movies have tried to bring out the human essence in a similar way before, it's just that none have ever hit the mark the same way Avatar has.

Yeah, I am still wondering what makes it so different. Other movies have actually hit the mark for me in some ways before, but none sucked me in that way. Part of it is certainly the community here, another part is the world of Pandora.
Its not just the things that HAPPEN in the movie, but more the things that are BEHIND it. I dont care so much about action scenes and fights. But Pandora itself, the network, the web of life, the plants and views, the luminescence and of course what we all see (though we only got a glimpse of their culture) in the NA'Vi - that is all going deeper.
Cameron said that he took the ideas and images from a dream and that is why I feel at home on Pandora as well, as it also is in my head somehow. It was there before Avatar and this is where this feeling of "returning home" comes from. It is this unexplainable connection, JC has found - to visualize something that was in the minds and dreams of people of this time - that is truely the amazing thing. Much more than an environmentalist story and a lovestory.

Time to gather our forces, our hearts and souls. Avatar has given us the strength and vision, let's use it.

Indeed it is time. Though one thing I would differ - Avatar has woken people up and made them aware, it has given some strength or motivation, but it has only given a glimpse of a vision. The vision of each person who has seen the movie differs greatly!
Some speak of becoming more aware of nature, to communicate with it, even to live in a new way to reconnect at a deep level. Others have turned towards green technology and want to have a house with solar panels and electric cars. Some want to "go native" and live away from civilization. Some have been inspired to become researchers to engineer bioluminescent plants or Ikran or want to travel to space by advancing technology. Some actually look forward to virtual worlds in high resolution so that they could be on Pandora at will. Some like me dream about flying and start doing that for real - the point is, that while Avatar in generally has inspired vision, the vision itself is very much different in all people and some of the visions certainly contradict each other. I think people who would want to "live like the NA'Vi" in the wild would certainly disagree a lot with advancing technology at the cost of nature even further for the next decades so that people could spacetravel or develop genetics to a point at which making Ikran and glowing plants are possible.

So the movie was a strong impulse, but it was not targeted, so probably that is good, as people are inspired to follow their own path, but it also makes it far from easy to "gather our forces", as there is not really a single common goal for us all.

Greetings,
Aurora

[Human No More]

This is why I still think some people still don't understand part of it.
Advancing technology is NOT mutually exclusive with nature. That's just Ludditism.
While I want to live more closely with nature, there is no reason to avoid technology based on that. Same with space travel, most people opposed to it are stuck in a flat-Earth mentality.

The message that often gets ignored is simply to take your own path in life, not to be told what to do and follow blindly, but to live as is right for yourself an to allow others to.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by Human No More

This is why I still think some people still don't understand part of it.
Advancing technology is NOT mutually exclusive with nature. That's just Ludditism.
While I want to live more closely with nature, there is no reason to avoid technology based on that.

Well - At least some or many perceive it that way, so that was mostly what I wanted to say, that people have different visions after the movie that may not be compatible (or people dont think they are compatible) as you also said:

The message that often gets ignored is simply to take your own path in life, not to be told what to do and follow blindly, but to live as is right for yourself an to allow others to.

So that basically is it - everyone is encouraged to develop an own vision and realize it. That is basically a great idea. The key is however that others should be allowed to do likewise. So basically "do what you want to do as long as you dont harm others (or inhibit them in their own doings".

My personal opinion is this: Of course that principle is a bit complicated when it comes to a planet of 7 billion people and a civilization that is encompassing almost everyone as it means that developing and using a technology would only be ok, if it does not harm people. And as sad as I am as a scientist who is quite interested in technology I see the vast majority of technologies as not following that principle. Even many of the more benign looking ones sadly contribute to harming people or harming the ecology - which in itself is bad - and thereby also harming people. I am interested in how you view that - what do you propose? What is your vision for yourself and for combining he visions of the people that have developed by people after Avatar? Have you maybe described it in another thread? (not to clutter this one full of debate

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

You can make it real, you just need to have the strength to fight for it. We've all seen what life has the potential to be

Yes, I agree.

I believe what makes Pandora, the Na'vi, Neytiri, and Avatar in general so beautiful is the feeling, the sensation of having something - adventure, romance, connection to nature etc. They are very basic aspects that touch deep - they have a natural calling in all humans. Curing depression comes from finding these things, using Avatar as an example for creating a better life for yourself. It's about turning something depressing into something motivational. Like many have experienced, Avatar was more inspiration than anything.

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

It's time for a brave new world, built by the power of our dreams

Dawn of the age of dreamers.

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

Yeah, I am still wondering what makes it so different. Other movies have actually hit the mark for me in some ways before, but none sucked me in that way.

I think it's how these fundamental aspects to life were presented. Like I said above - adventure, romance, a feeling of "I belong here", or "I have that one thing worth fighting for". These are natural things that our spirits call for. Avatar was an answer to that call.

[auroraglacialis]

Originally Posted by caveman

I think it's how these fundamental aspects to life were presented. Like I said above - adventure, romance, a feeling of "I belong here", or "I have that one thing worth fighting for". These are natural things that our spirits call for. Avatar was an answer to that call.

That is true, but still it is not quite. I mean there were definitely earthbound movies before that had these elements in them. Actually Adventure, romance and something to fight for are very common storytelling themes present in I daresay most good movies and even many bad ones. The part about connecting to nature is also not that uncommon and Avatar has been compared to other movies that have all these elements.

I think what makes a difference is the feeling of something special, something that feels like home and that I think comes from bringing dreams, actual dreams to the screen. Why we recognize these dreams I dont know - why do I feel at home under a sky with a big red planet and with blue plants and floating mountains I cannot explain...

But the major thing is the mythology and symbolism in the movie. It is breathtaking once one starts to think about it. It has so many mythological aspects that it just blows you away. Of course there is the Pantheism thing, the circle of life, the "everything is connected", Gaiaism and "the spirit that flows through all things". Then there is the whole mythology about connecting individuals to each other by tsaheylu, the mythology of an afterlife at the tree of voices and the one of of deep bonding between individuals. There is a mythology in taming powerful dragons (Ikran, Toruk), soul transfer and rebirth in a new body. There is a saviour mythology with Jake riding Toruk and an apocalypse with the invasion and war of the sky people. There is a constant and reoccuring reference to dreaming and the world of dreams. The phrases "wake up" are repeated many times, the whole Avatar program is like lucid dreaming and also has elements of rebirth. There are also signs and premonitions with the woodsprites landing on Jake.

There also is a powerful symbolism involved. The colors are not arbitrary, the sky people world is grey, the outside is colorful, blue, a calming and mystical color is prevalent in the NA'Vi and their healing rituals, power is presented as a red Toruk, clean and pure white is the color of the souls, the trees of voices and souls and their seeds.

These are all powerful myths, fundamental myths that we recognize from our own life, our culture, other cultures and from something deep within us. And I think that mythology is what really makes a huge difference, as it touches us so deeply in a spot that has in the past decades been quite neglected or even exploited. Avatar is at its core a spiritual movie in that respect and has a similar effect on people as trance-dreams, psychedelics or religious experiences in a way. You can see that in how people react also, they feel PAD, they have to sit down outside the cinema after the movie is over, they change their lives, describe the experience as lifechangin, or awakening, or mind-opening and go and see it over and over again.

That was longer as I thought I hope it makes sense

[caveman]

That makes a lot of sense.

What you said is...perfect. There were so many things I connected with, that I probably didn't even realize.

I like how you compare Avatar to dreams. That is very true. It also deeply touches to our inner child and our childhood imagination that has long been forgotten. To mix the two, Avatar is the perfect children's dream.

On another note, lately, I've had some longings for Pandora. Their short-lived, usually replaced with a great sense of love and excitement. But strangely enough, I've also been longing for...Spyro. The playstation (1) game, my first true love. It took you to a beautiful world full of magic and wonder, which come to think of it, is not surprise why I relate it so well to Pandora.

[Neytiri.]

Originally Posted by caveman

That makes a lot of sense.

What you said is...perfect. There were so many things I connected with, that I probably didn't even realize.

I like how you compare Avatar to dreams. That is very true. It also deeply touches to our inner child and our childhood imagination that has long been forgotten. To mix the two, Avatar is the perfect children's dream.

On another note, lately, I've had some longings for Pandora. Their short-lived, usually replaced with a great sense of love and excitement. But strangely enough, I've also been longing for...Spyro. The playstation (1) game, my first true love. It took you to a beautiful world full of magic and wonder, which come to think of it, is not surprise why I relate it so well to Pandora.

I feel the same way all of you have been feeling, a feeling of wonder, amazing, and a deep sadness that well never get to experience something so beautiful and amazing, but that's what we are for, that's the point of this forum to show love for everyone who sees it as we do. Were one big family. I truly love avatar and Pandora, and therefor if any of you ever need to talk i'll be here

[Empty Glass]

(There's been a lot of great posts here in the past few days, I enjoy reading everyone's wisdom and props to you all for sharing it. )

[Layzie]

Originally Posted by caveman

If anyone needs help, would like someone to talk to, or just any advice, I'm here willing to help if you're willing to listen to me. I consider myself a success story in terms of PAD, and I offer my best advice to anyone who wants it. Feel free to PM me, or post here. I'm also on AF.

Do you mind sharing your story? I am interested to hear how you were able to deal with it so well.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

My personal opinion is this: Of course that principle is a bit complicated when it comes to a planet of 7 billion people and a civilization that is encompassing almost everyone as it means that developing and using a technology would only be ok, if it does not harm people. And as sad as I am as a scientist who is quite interested in technology I see the vast majority of technologies as not following that principle. Even many of the more benign looking ones sadly contribute to harming people or harming the ecology - which in itself is bad - and thereby also harming people. I am interested in how you view that - what do you propose? What is your vision for yourself and for combining he visions of the people that have developed by people after Avatar? Have you maybe described it in another thread? (not to clutter this one full of debate

Well, the world is hugely overpopulated - really, the population should be allowed to drop to a sustainable level (it IS possible to support a population like that, but requires technology that doesn't exist yet and won't for at least a couple of decades).
I seethe majority of technology as neutral - it's how you use it, how you apply the knowledge gained, what you do with the ability that matters. Not what is developed.

Originally Posted by Layzie

Do you mind sharing your story? I am interested to hear how you were able to deal with it so well.

Sorry, I'm going to have to reply... what he did may well have worked for him, but personally, I really don't think it's am amazing idea... For me, it's a red pill/blue pill situation - you can either embrace the change Avatar brings and change your life, make the decisions, or you can forget everything and go back to how you were, to lose what you had that was worth fighting for.

There are still too many people who misinterpret feelings around Avatar as depression - it is not 'depression' in the sense some describe it... it's awakening. Longing. Seeing something worth living for and fighting for. Wanting something different to all the billions who just do what they're told and follow the others.
That is why I consider the changes a good thing.

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Layzie

Do you mind sharing your story? I am interested to hear how you were able to deal with it so well.

Certainly. But just to clear something up first...

Originally Posted by Human No More

Sorry, I'm going to have to reply... what he did may well have worked for him, but personally, I really don't think it's am amazing idea... For me, it's a red pill/blue pill situation - you can either embrace the change Avatar brings and change your life, make the decisions, or you can forget everything and go back to how you were, to lose what you had that was worth fighting for.

There are still too many people who misinterpret feelings around Avatar as depression - it is not 'depression' in the sense some describe it... it's awakening. Longing. Seeing something worth living for and fighting for. Wanting something different to all the billions who just do what they're told and follow the others.
That is why I consider the changes a good thing.

You have a completely skewed vision of my transformation. I don't know how you got those ideas about my life, but they are wrong.

I shall tell my story for Layzie, and hopefully this will clear things up for everyone.

Before Avatar, my life was fairly empty. Well, it was recently "dumped down the drain" I guess you could say, because at one point my life was great. Around late fall, I was living in the prime of my life. I had passion, energy, a sense of greater purpose, everything I needed to be happy - and I felt happy. But my dreams and hopes were met with some soul-crushing experiences (that I'd rather not share). They weren't anything extreme, but they left me in emotional turmoil and I had an overwhelming sense of failure and disappointment in myself leading into winter.

These emotions bottled heavily inside, but went unnoticed. I had life problems that needed to be sorted out, and it looked like I might be coming around, but then I saw Avatar.

Pandora is the perfect escape. This was a place not only to get away from the struggling world around me, but to also escape myself, if that makes sense.

I connected with the movie quite well. Everything from barefoot running (which I often did), to feeling a flow of energy through all things (which I did) - all touched deep into my heart. This place was my home, but then the movie ended.

And that's when all those bottled emotions poured out. All at once. And while I couldn't get to Pandora, I was stuck in the cold of winter with a sudden rush of "you suck" and "this wasn't supposed to happen" going through my head. I became very depressed.

I tried ignoring the emotions after a couple weeks. I thought "I just have to snap out of it". As a matter of fact, you can see my last post on AvatarForums before I "left for good":

Ways to cope with the depression of the dream of Pandora being intangible. Part 4

Of course, ignoring those feelings didn't work:

Ways to cope with the depression of the dream of Pandora being intangible. Part 4

I came back looking for help. I needed help. God knows where I'd be if I didn't.

Over much discussion on the depression thread, I realized a few things about the depression. First, my longing for Pandora was more... spiritual than anything. It was the emotions, the sense of freedom, the feeling of excitement and joy. The reason I italicized these words (emotion, sense, feeling, joy) is because these all heavily rely on the mind and the heart. They are internal factors.

I realized, if I want to be happy, I need to focus on my inside. I had deep problems inside me, I needed to fix those. Avatar was an awakening, a beginning to a spiritual journey of the self. At the time, I was a lonely, scared and weak coward; I needed to become more like a Jake Sully.

So slowly, I realized that Pandora is tangible. But not in the way you would think. In this life, we may never step foot on Pandora, but we can put Pandora in our hearts. We can change ourselves to be more passionate, compassionate, loving, caring and open-minded people.

The whole idea behind my approach to depression is to focus on the inside. Use Avatar as a source for inspiration, a reason to be happy. Something to celebrate and share with the world. There are so many problems out there pollution, corruption, poverty, so many bad things. But they are also opportunities for people like us to bring good into the world. And we have a great source for that kind of inspiration - Avatar.

So HNM's example of me taking the blue or red pill or whatever pill it is - is wrong. I didn't accept the empty life that was laid out before me - that's not what dreamers do. I took Avatar and used it as a source for change and happiness, not depression. I should add, that when I say depression, I mean sitting around all day wishing you were dead - that kind of depression. I wouldn't want that for anyone. Sure, I totally agree, the depression is an awakening. But my point is you should do something with that awakening, using Avatar as a source for inspiration.

I didn't chose to blindly accept a fake and empty societal life. What I did accept however, is that I am not going to Pandora any time soon, and that isn't a reason to be depressed. I accepted that I live in a messed up world, but that can be a good thing in some ways - it gives me reason to live and dreams, hopes, and something worth fighting for. Avatar truly changed me for the better. I didn't ignore those feelings, I used them to their fullest potential. Honestly I have no idea, HNM, where you get these ideas about me.

[Tsyal Makto]

I think it's maybe because you emphasize internalization so much, that maybe you come across as ignoring the external world a bit? You might feel freedom, joy, and excitement inside, but on the outside you might just be an everyday worker/consumer, and simply changing your mindset without making physical lifestyle changes might come across as a bit blue pillish. Though I know from other posts of yours that you are trying to buck the consumer/worker lifestyle, too, like most of us here. Maybe you could emphasize that a bit more? To show that you aren't rejecting your physical reality.

Just my theory.

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

I think it's maybe because you emphasize internalization so much, that maybe you come across as ignoring the external world a bit? You might feel freedom, joy, and excitement inside, but on the outside you might just be an everyday worker/consumer, and simply changing your mindset without making physical lifestyle changes might come across as a bit blue pillish. Though I know from other posts of yours that you are trying to buck the consumer/worker lifestyle, too, like most of us here. Maybe you could emphasize that a bit more? To show that you aren't rejecting your physical reality.

Just my theory.

Ok I can see where you're coming from. Thank you.

I have always promoted that level of internalization, but physical factors are important as well. I don't want people getting the notion that I think "Well, if we all think we're happy, then we'll be happy, even if our lives are really terrible." No, that's not what I'm promoting. Sorry if it sounds like that.

EDIT: TM, you know I hate "the man". Just because I'm happy doesn't mean I accept a lot of the BS that runs around. But I don't let that get me down. I look at it as opportunity, and I am happy and grateful for the challenges and journeys that lie ahead.

Physical aspects are important, but change comes from the heart.

You have to remember that when someone is depressed, they might not feel like doing anything. When I was depressed, all I wanted to do was lie around and die away. The advice I'm giving is for people who are genuinely depressed. Internal change is meant to help people find the strength to get out of bed. Then use that same strength to do something constructive in the real world. You follow?