Ways To Cope With The Depression Of The Dream Of Pandora Being Intangible.

[The Man in Black]

Originally Posted by Sempu

These are deep and tearing questions. Being given a glimpse of heaven really tests who you are by how you react.

Exactly. Can you fight through the obstacles that life throws at you, or will you worship them and let them take control of your life? Sempu, I'll make the 90,000th reference to The Power of Full Engagement (because it's that good of a book): Stress is a good thing, not a bad thing, STRESS IS A GOOD THING. It makes you stronger and the sooner you overcome it, the more aptly you can handle anything to come.

Think about it this way: We were given a glimpse of something spectacular as Sempu has said, if you can overcome this glimpse without obsessing over it or using it as a crutch for too much time, then you've accomplished an incredible feat. What does a demotion or a bad grade on a test compare to that? It doesn't, and because of this, all of us on here are much, much more apt to persevere for the rest of our lives. With that said, bringing Pandora to Earth should not be the objective here, Pandora is amazing and everything, but it's nowhere near where we as a society could push the limits of perfection.

So here's where I challenge everyone here: how about instead of wasting time talking about what's wrong with our planet and what we've done to destroy it, we talk about ways in which we can fix it. (Maybe that's why it's not happening in IRL, everyone likes to complain *shocked face*) Easy to say, but I still haven't seen it happen. Here's the thing, WE PERSONALLY have done nothing wrong to send our society farther from perfection than we desire, that is a result of society from many generations past to now. So while we're here, why not fulfill potential? And it starts from the little things. Here's a positive: this website is an example of a "little thing". This current discussion as I'm reading it doesn't belong in "Ways to cope with the depression of the dream of Pandora being intangible." Anyone up for making a thread like "Ways we can improve society without any thought of Pandora"? That would be a huge step in a positive direction away from depression and sadness, and that's really the way you get out of a depression if you're still in one. I'm all for leaving this thread for people that need help and such, but discussion of this scale shouldn't really be here unless it pertains to still being depressed. (Which if we continue would be like beating a dead horse...we have two websites now filled with an incredible amount of information that could be put into like a 9 volume "bible" of how to live your life )

So, one more time: it doesn't really matter what we expect from life, but rather what life expects from us. Anyone here up for the challenge? I sure as hell am, bring it on.

[Tsyal Makto]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

Yes, and that parts are what really is bugging HNM a lot (and to a degree you and me and many others too). And you cant even have these things if you really dig deep into science - biolumie plants you could make by using immensely dangerous biotechnology right now, but Ikran, Tsaheylu, Eywa, floating mountains and a f-ing big awesome planet in the sky you can't.

I agree with you though, that many of the things we crave are possible. But I guess I repeat myself in saying that this theoretical possibility makes things even worse at times.

Well, you can have tsaheylu if you've got an open mind spiritually, the same with Eywa. Hang gliders can be considered Earth Ikran (now, at least, there used to be pterosaurs). Some of the amazing mountains on Earth do do a pretty decent job of giving some of the flying mountains a run for their money. And if I can't have polyphemus, an arm of the milky way, trillions of stars, and one bright little moon will do.

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

It is paradox, yes isn't it? People seek safety and security but also look for an adventure. I think one can still have adventures in this world. Life can still be an adventure, but unlike our ancestors or the NA'Vi we have to choose so deliberately, consciously, and that is of course always a bit tough in the face of our education that tells us that safety is the thing we should value most.

Isn't it incredibly sad? That's why I want out so much. Maybe it's because we've become a world run by lawyers, or maybe it's the good ol' corrupt politicians at it again, or maybe it's because we've simply become weaklings, but the way the world has become such a nanny state really is sad. I mean dammit kids used to have guns, and toys where they poured liquid metal, now parents won't even let their kids go to the park anymore. Or for adults. Take a look at this very Ikran-like device. Guess what? Banned. Plus all the bureaucratic red-tape one has to go through to do something like hang glide. It's not even fun things, either, anymore, that are feeling the restrictive mindset of the modern world. Now it's basic civil liberties. Take a look at London, and the people want even MORE cameras. I'm sure all the little fascists in the world are just salivating right now, at the thought of how much power they could gain from exploiting people's fears like this. And the funny thing is that people often feel that these measures are being done to fight fascism. Well, they're in for a big surprise... I shudder to think of what it would take to knock people out of this ether.

Besides community, I think that's another thing I want. To live in a world not covered in bubble-wrap. To actually be able to do the things I want, on my own terms. To be able to run, to swim, to climb, to fly, when I want, where I want. Without some overlooming power telling me not to. Like my status says, is freedom really too much to ask for? Is the freedom that humans once had really too much to ask for? To live the only life I'll ever have on this planet as I see fit? Beholden to no man above me?

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

I used to think, I want to live in the forest by myself. Like one of the witches of the old times. But I realized, that in reality, I want community. Just that such a community can only partly work in a city. Besides I dont want that - I want nature, wilderness and community and not just some part of it. One big difference is, and I just connected some dots here, that a real "tribal community" depends on each other. Truely and utterly. That is what makes them a tribe. It is not a metaphorical dependence like in one of Daniel Quinns occupational tribes in which when it fails, everyone will just go someplace else. In ethnic tribes, is the hunters shot no deer, everyone has to eat roots and caterpillars. If people dont get together to build a new house, someone has to sleep outside. This kind of dependence incites on the first thought a feeling of helplessness, but it is also the foundation for a tight community, of trust and a feeling of beeing cared for. The strange double bind of a longing for independence but also a longing for community (requireing dependence) is to me quite a paradox of modern human nature. How to create a closely dependent and interlinked community of independent individual free beeings is a challenge - one that our group probably will strive to achieve - but it can also be a topic for discussion on how this may be possible....

So true. Society is simultaneously both too small and too large. On one end, one has the nuclear family (if one is even lucky enough to have one), which is too small to fulfill everyone's natural needs for a large, but at the same time, loving community. On the other hand, one has society outside the home, which is large, but not loving. It is impersonal, with it's main focus being economics. I mean, isn't most of our time outside the home spent on work? I think that's the reason everything is so split into factions these days - political parties, churches, clubs, etc. They are all attempts at fulfilling people's longings for a tribal society, where larger groups of people can come together over something that does not involve business or work.

That's what I think the future needs. Techno-tribes. A tribal societal structure, but one that can still advance scientifically. Where the kind of love one finds in a nuclear family isn't restricted to such a small group. I think many of the old villages in Italy are a good example of something like this.

TMIB - Wait, what's wrong with going through life with Pandora in one's heart? For the people here has been a magnificent source of inspiration, the depression is just a phase. It strikes the heart and soul in ways that something hasn't done in a long time, why not use it as a vision for change? Powerful works of art have done it in the past, why not again with Avatar?

Oh, and can you use the "hamburgers" Winnfield as your avatar? The one you've got now scares the crap outta me.

[The Man in Black]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

TMIB - Wait, what's wrong with going through life with Pandora in one's heart? For the people here has been a magnificent source of inspiration, the depression is just a phase. It strikes the heart and soul in ways that something hasn't done in a long time, why not use it as a vision for change? Powerful works of art have done it in the past, why not again with Avatar?

Oh, and can you use the "hamburgers" Winnfield as your avatar? The one you've got now scares the crap outta me.

Nothing is wrong with it, you misunderstood what I said. Having Pandora forever in your heart is fine, "obsessing over it or using it as a crutch for too much time" is counter-productive. My whole point was that instead of spending time dwelling in this specific thread over things we've gotten over, why not use what we've learned from it as a "vision of change" like you said? I'm not seeing that. I'm saying if most of us have gotten over PAD, why not move on to discussing ways in which we can improve ourselves/improve the world. That isn't happening, and that is the whole point of my post. Your post^ was a better shift away from what I'm talking about. Although you did do quite a bit of complaining (), at least you offered a solution for a better society: an idea, better than reading a post only about how much society sucks right now. But here's really my point: was there anything in your post that if you read would suggest it belongs in "Ways to cope with the depression of the dream of Pandora being intangible"? I'd say it belongs in a new thread, a new thread that is more upbeat and a shift of tempo from the one we're in.

We've beaten this thread to death for months now, time to move forward. <---Was that more clear? Lol

And you should be scared of the picture, it's Jules MothaFFin Winnfield!! Jk, I'll change it soon.

[Tsyal Makto]

Well this thread was pretty dormant for a while until these last few weeks. Our last person with full PAD was...months ago. Ever since then it's just been sporadic existential discussion every few weeks for a few posts. This really isn't the main thread anymore, just like on AF. The best discussion occurs on the rest of the forum. Plenty of ideas, too.

[The Man in Black]

Here guys:
http://www.tree-of-souls.com/general...tml#post104874

Anybody up for moving away from depression and into improvement!?!?!

TM- yeah I know, tryin to get some discussion started, and since some of the new discussion has started on this thread, why not move it to a new one for a more positive outlook?

[caveman]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

The strange double bind of a longing for independence but also a longing for community (requireing dependence) is to me quite a paradox of modern human nature.

This reminded me of The 7 Habits. One of the things Covey talks about is the transition and growth between dependence, independence, and eventually interdependence. They come in that order, and one cannot effectively be skipped.

So what you're talking about with the tribes is interdependence. But getting to that point is a process. Everyone starts off as a baby, depending on their parents. And then some people get into independence, standing on your own two feet. (Some tribes have coming-of-age rituals) And following independence, (most people never get this far) is the ability to work as an individual who knows working as a team is more effective.

[caveman]

Is anyone still depressed? I've seen a lot of discussion but very little talk of actually feeling depressed...

I think what some of the members struggle with is "what now?". Avatar offered a perfect life, and many have used that sacred place as a source for inspiration, a centerpiece for a changed heart. But inspiration for what? For some people, its art, some computers and animation, or music, and for myself it's writing. But not everybody has these platforms to fall back to. I think without that focus, it's hard to find joy or passion for everyday life, which builds an empty feeling inside.

I don't think people aren't trying to feeling better. Everyone wants to feel good. But without a focus, that can be difficult. Myself as an example, I think Pandora is perfect. Sometimes I like to build this dream and think about being there. But in the end, I put these dreams in my heart and carry them with me. And now, I'm working to put them in words; I want to reach an audience. I want to bring smiles to people's faces, more so than I want to be happy myself. It's a dream of mine. Pandora is too, but, when I can't have it, I can still have one of my dreams. I'm still getting something that I want.

[Fkeu'itan]

Yes, I think that's a good way of putting it, caveman.

I think that maybe people are still depressed, but the reason for it has changed. Whilst some people still suffer with PAD (I do in part), I think that a lot of it also has to do with wanting to now bring that world to ours, to live the way that they did and to find the truth in life, but there is a general feeling of hopelessness when it comes to such thoughts. Feelings that you'll be destined for lonliness, that the world we have is no longer salvagable, or even worth attempting to save, that we're just one person up against almost 7 billion others that there's insurmountable odds, and so on...

Even perhaps, fear. Not of the world itself, but of what actually living your life on it will mean.

I still long for Pandora... but slowly, i'm finding the love for her sister planet too. It just hurts that I can't spend time - maybe even the rest of my life - in that love.

[Sempu]

All of this hunger says to me that there is a revolution possible. It is going on elsewhere, too: several books have recently been published describing the immense benefit of communal living. I've posted about the book "Healthy at 100" as an example.

God or Eywa does not give us deep desires in order to torture us, but to give us a purpose to fulfill in the world. Can you conceive of an Earth where more people in western civilization live in social tribes? I can. Think big. As far away as that goal may be, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Perhaps you are the one to take that step.

[Sempu]

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

Whilst some people still suffer with PAD (I do in part), I think that a lot of it also has to do with wanting to now bring that world to ours, to live the way that they did and to find the truth in life, but there is a general feeling of hopelessness when it comes to such thoughts. Feelings that you'll be destined for lonliness, that the world we have is no longer salvagable, or even worth attempting to save, that we're just one person up against almost 7 billion others that there's insurmountable odds, and so on...

Even perhaps, fear. Not of the world itself, but of what actually living your life on it will mean.

I still long for Pandora... but slowly, i'm finding the love for her sister planet too. It just hurts that I can't spend time - maybe even the rest of my life - in that love.

I see you. That vision will forever be etched on my soul. I cannot let that tension in me be in vain; I must do something with it.

One person can make a difference, never forget it. If you think you can only make a small difference, then your thoughts are too small, not your ability.

And you are not just one person. Look at all of us here. Think of the power of many.

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Sempu

Think of the power of many.

Taking that one step further: Think about this forum. A bunch of movie-goers from around the world somehow united under the same dream and stuck together like a family. If there's any proof that humanity is searching for unity and a better tomorrow for both people and the environment, its right in front of you.

[auroraglacialis]

Depressed? Well - sometimes yes - but you put it right - I keep it as a dream, as a vision and if it comes, the depressing feeling comes from the overwhelming challenge to make anything of that real here. Ok, there is a little bit of "longing for home" attached to me, too. It is not specifically about Pandora though, but it is about a place that I had in my dreams and was represented by Pandora this year. So I cant say it is PAD - and it also is something I got to know exists with non-Avatar fans as well. Dwelling on that lead to me taking a tour into exploring subconscious, dreams and intuition, so it was indeed a good thing to start on this, even if it does cause some melachony for not beeing as tangible.

Originally Posted by TMIB

STRESS IS A GOOD THING.

It can be or it can not be. I know 2 types - one type that makes me do things I like in a fast and efficient manner. And another in which choires drown me that I cannot manage to do, mostly tasks that I dont like to do.
The first one is good, the second one causes heart attacks

Originally Posted by TMIB

So here's where I challenge everyone here: how about instead of wasting time talking about what's wrong with our planet and what we've done to destroy it, we talk about ways in which we can fix it....Here's the thing, WE PERSONALLY have done nothing wrong to send our society farther from perfection than we desire, that is a result of society from many generations past to now

Well, I think it is not a totally bad thing to look at the "what is wrong" part first, to be informed, to become passionate and emotionally involved. If you fall in love with the planet and you see the things that are wrong, you are really getting a motivation up to do something. Much more so than if you only act out of reason. But yes - eventually, one has to direct the anger towards action instead of just talking.
Oh and I agree with the "rats tail" that we face. The problems at hand are NOT only caused by us personally. We do so because we were born into it and grew up in it. That should not be an excuse for doing nothing, but we should not feel all to guilty about everything we participated in up to now. Guilt makes things a lot worse as it causes paralysis. And at the same time, it makes no sense to worry daily about using toilet paper and water for showers and gas to cook food. Of course one should be conscious about these things and try to act reasonably, but honestly it is not our fault that these things exist. So we can reduce our own consumerism, reduce our personal impact, but in some way, I think there is the desire to change things beyond that... I am not sure how yet, and I think that is what makes most people look so apathic. One can change the own life relatively easily - use less, consume less, spend less,... even do mor effort and fundamentally change the own life. But we perceive ourselves as helpless in the face of a long established trajectory of this culture...

@Tsyal: Well - while with that flying tube this can happen: YouTube - Kite-Tubing NOSE DIVE!!! - I still think it should be a choice made by each individually to take risks or not. Of course what comes into play then in any society large or small is the interdependance again. If a member of a society behaves in risky ways and may loose the ability to contribute to the society (by dying, becoming disabled or injured) - that society is not accepting of this behaviour easily. In the modern society it may be that kite flying has a risk of people becoming injured heavily, public helath care has to pay for hospital and all of society pays for that risk that one person takes and people start to get angry at that person. In a small tribe, a person who would regularly go kayaking down a dangerous river just for fun would probably cause similar worries because if he breaks bones, people will have to feed him and care for him on their own time. So it is not that easy to combine social interdependence and community with absolute freedom of actions. In modern society this is reflected by rules and banning some things, I dont know reall yhow tribal people would deal with this really - or how to create a good combination. That is what I think is what we need to find as a vision.

On the "little brother": http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/ma...OB-WWLN-t.html - nice, even thge NYT realizes, that 1984 is a pale shadow compared to what is going on now - and it goes on without the need for a big brother even...

And Tsyal, you mentioned Techno-Tribes. That is a concept I had in my head also for a while, but I did not reach a conclusion if it is possible. Maybe it is somehow - I kept insisting that it is, but also that many technologies would be hard or impossible to achieve then. Actually it is part of my criticism against regular Anarchism, that their idea to shed any large institutions would almost require the formationof small self-organized communities which in turn would lead to massive complications to achieve large scale projects like genetic engineering, computer technology, space travel etc. (essentially making any plans to realize shedding large insititutions and governments essentially a "primitivist" vision). It is not impossible, but improbable due to several reasons, I will not go into that now though. Maybe if there is a new thread on that?

Overall - my vision is one of a tribal future - whatever shape this may take. But agin, I will post on that in the new thread

[Tsyal Makto]

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

Yes, I think that's a good way of putting it, caveman.

I think that maybe people are still depressed, but the reason for it has changed. Whilst some people still suffer with PAD (I do in part), I think that a lot of it also has to do with wanting to now bring that world to ours, to live the way that they did and to find the truth in life, but there is a general feeling of hopelessness when it comes to such thoughts. Feelings that you'll be destined for lonliness, that the world we have is no longer salvagable, or even worth attempting to save, that we're just one person up against almost 7 billion others that there's insurmountable odds, and so on...

Even perhaps, fear. Not of the world itself, but of what actually living your life on it will mean.

I still long for Pandora... but slowly, i'm finding the love for her sister planet too. It just hurts that I can't spend time - maybe even the rest of my life - in that love.

Well put ma tsmukan. I'll always consider Pandora my true home, where I was truly meant to be, and maybe someday, somehow... Anyway, though I'm learning to love my foster home of Earth, too.

It's tough for a free spirit that values the freedom of the wild and the freedom to live by one's own right, to live in a world that values conformity, materialism, and one's economic productivity and viability over all else. The problem is that the world today attempts to take 7 billion various shaped pegs, and fit them all into the same hole, have the same role in the world. To go to school, get a job, consume, and die quickly before they become too much of an economic burden. From a purely economic standpoint this system works, because everyone has the same potential for doing work if pushed hard enough by the system. Though, from an existential and spiritual standpoint, this is a horrible system. Why? Because everyone has different expectations from life, different dreams, different capabilities, and they all want to live in a way that maximizes their own personal potential to fulfill their dreams. However, the problem that the world has with this is that in some cases, those lifestyles would counter the economic bottom line of society (like people who want to live in the wild or go off the grid). Which is why modern society is often refered to as the only "real word," and we are taught to believe that life outside of it is a brutish hell (think "Lord of the Flies"). It's that societal push to conform, to instill the belief that as long as we sit down, shut up, and do as we're told, we can find freedom, fulfillment, and love. Though people like you, me, and many others here see this is a load of crap for people who think like we do.

If this is the case, you've got two options.
- Pop the blue pill, give in, and be a good little modern wage slave and consumer, not challenging the system to change, or trying to escape it.

or

- Fight like hell for whatever you feel is worth fighting for, in whatever way you feel like fighting for it. Whether it be within the modern world or without.

US-centric, but can apply to what the rest of the world is facing, too. I posted it once before in another thread months ago, but it seems like a good time to post it again.

We Will Have To Fight

I think the Fight Club quote in my sig describes it pretty well, too.

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

@Tsyal: Well - while with that flying tube this can happen: YouTube - Kite-Tubing NOSE DIVE!!! - I still think it should be a choice made by each individually to take risks or not. Of course what comes into play then in any society large or small is the interdependance again. If a member of a society behaves in risky ways and may loose the ability to contribute to the society (by dying, becoming disabled or injured) - that society is not accepting of this behaviour easily. In the modern society it may be that kite flying has a risk of people becoming injured heavily, public helath care has to pay for hospital and all of society pays for that risk that one person takes and people start to get angry at that person. In a small tribe, a person who would regularly go kayaking down a dangerous river just for fun would probably cause similar worries because if he breaks bones, people will have to feed him and care for him on their own time. So it is not that easy to combine social interdependence and community with absolute freedom of actions. In modern society this is reflected by rules and banning some things, I dont know reall yhow tribal people would deal with this really - or how to create a good combination. That is what I think is what we need to find as a vision.

Well, primitive people/the Na'vi did lead pretty risky lives. Climbing trees, running, chasing, being chased, riding horses, cliff diving, etc. Indeed sometimes for sport, as well. I'm sure some people ended up getting bumped and bruised along the way, indeed it would be interesting to see how they would deal with it. I'm sure that they were probably more liberal in terms of living dangerously than modern people are, because there was less at risk. If someone did something back then they didn't have the ability to destroy thousands of dollars of public infrastructure or private property in the process. Usually one would either hurt themselves, or if they did damage anything, it could easily be dealt with. With that said I still think that the modern world underestimates people's common sense, and ability to minimize risk to others/property with their actions. Used properly something like the Manta Ray would be perfectly safe. To ban it outright is overkill. All tht is doing is letting sue-happy lawyers push society further into nanny-stateism.

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

On the "little brother": http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/ma...OB-WWLN-t.html - nice, even thge NYT realizes, that 1984 is a pale shadow compared to what is going on now - and it goes on without the need for a big brother even...

Interesting, and IMO one of the reasons why people need to fight like hell for net neutrality. If something as powerful as the internet allows everyday people to spy on each other this way, I shudder to think about what would happen if a few mega-corporations or the government ended up taking control if it. The internet is basically the last weapon common people have against the ruling class. Much of everything else is controlled by only a few hands (in the US, there are only 6 major news networks left in the mainstream, sounds trustworthy to me).

YouTube - The Henry Rollins Show - America Is Under Attack

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

And Tsyal, you mentioned Techno-Tribes. That is a concept I had in my head also for a while, but I did not reach a conclusion if it is possible. Maybe it is somehow - I kept insisting that it is, but also that many technologies would be hard or impossible to achieve then. Actually it is part of my criticism against regular Anarchism, that their idea to shed any large institutions would almost require the formationof small self-organized communities which in turn would lead to massive complications to achieve large scale projects like genetic engineering, computer technology, space travel etc. (essentially making any plans to realize shedding large insititutions and governments essentially a "primitivist" vision). It is not impossible, but improbable due to several reasons, I will not go into that now though. Maybe if there is a new thread on that?

Overall - my vision is one of a tribal future - whatever shape this may take. But agin, I will post on that in the new thread

Yeah, it's a pretty complex issue fit for a new thread. Too much to discuss here.

[The Man in Black]

Originally Posted by auroraglacialis

One can change the own life relatively easily - use less, consume less, spend less,... even do mor effort and fundamentally change the own life. But we perceive ourselves as helpless in the face of a long established trajectory of this culture...

Here's the great part about it: in order to change the world, you start with changing yourself, lead by example and you will most certainly leave an impact. This is my whole point: one minute spent sulking over the paradise you could be in or many other things is a minute you could've been a better person, or a minute you could've left an impact.

I said it in the new thread: Paradise will come soon enough, why not enjoy the time on Earth and leave your impact while you can?

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone or if I'm the only one that feels this way, but doesn't anyone else feel like we've spent enough time talking about depression and loneliness and the crappiness of society?

[Tsyal Makto]

I still think it's important to discuss the world's ills. Once we contemplate it enough, and deconstruct it enough, we can put some coherent threads of thought together to follow for solutions.