Derealization

[ZenitYerkes]

Strange how all you thought was real can stop being so in a matter of seconds.

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I think I can distinguish reality by two criteria: the first, whether I receive information from the outside or not, this is, if I perceive it or not; and the second is, whether I am conscious of it or not.

Thus, as I said on the "What's real?" thread on the debate section, we've got three different kinds of realities depending on those.

The first one is what I can perceive, from the outside (this is, something I am not controlling at all, and I am receiving information about constanly) and I am conscious about. What most of us call "real world". What I perceive is what I see, my printer with its green LED shining, my room recently tidied up and my hands typing on the keyboard; what I can smell is the stink of the meals coming out from the kitchens of my block; what I can hear is the sound my PC's freezer does; and so on.

The second one is abstract reality, a reality I do not receive information about from the outside, but rather create it myself in my head; and a reality I am conscious about most of the times (but not dreaming for example).

The third one is scarier, because we do not have the means to know anything about it, neither we are conscious about it. It's unknown.

These three merge in the only reality. A reality that basically covers everything that exists.


Now, the first one is all a perception from my point of view; but I ask, where does this information come from? Is that desk really there, do I really see it, touch it?

What is the cause that makes me know there is a desk there?

Because I perceive it as a wooden object, with four legs and a plank. Is it actually a desk? How if I had a sixth sense, would I see a different aspect from it, an aspect hidden by that unknown reality?

Imagine we got an all-seeing viewer -a viewer that could see that presumed unique reality- between me and the desk. Would he see the same object I do?


What I mean with all this is, what we perceive, is it an illusion? What is actually beneath what our senses tell us that exist?

Are our -limited- senses and perceptions the only means to reach reality? The only source of information? Is that information the only one we can have from reality, and therefore, should we take as real only what we perceive?

Or is there anything else?
---

This is surrealistic.

[Tsyal Makto]

Good question. Time to post my longer response. Now let me ask you a question...

Are YOU real? How do you know that you are real? As Morpheus said, if real is what we can percieve with our five senses, then dreams are real. A few nights ago, I had a vivid dream that I was a test subject in Portal. I remember everything - the vivid structure, the sounds of my walking and the chatter of turrets, the feel of the portal gun in my hands. For a time I was there, and I have memories of being there. One day if we create simulated reality worlds, they too would be considered real. If we made one for Pandora, guess what? Pandora just became tangible! The entire moon of Pandora could be created on a computer the size of a mainframe. So now I ask you, where is Pandora? How would we classify a world that vast that takes up almost no space in this reality? Another dimension? Or another example is my dream - the entire VAST Aperture Science facility being created on something as small as the human brain. Where is the facility? Trust me, it wasn't the size of my brain, that would be a little cramped. Technically, did my mind enter another dimension? Could things like dreams, or simulated realities be considered other dimensions? If that is the case, do we have to revise our definition of what a dimension is? And then, the biggest question, how do we know that our world right now isn't just some simulated reality, made by some alien race? How do we know that our entire universe, encompassing billions of lightyears, isn't the size of some desktop computer in some far off world? Or does it even matter? How do we explain things like OBEs? Some are incredibly vivid, I can vouch. I correctly percieved the time down to the minute once while meditating with my back turned to the clock. Was it just a vivid dream? Did I really leave my body? Did I cause some glitch in "The Matrix?" Or ghosts? Glitches in the system? Actual spirits from beyond the grave?

The biggest question of all - With all these variables (which, as you can see from my post, lead to more questions than answers when pondered ), is it even worth trying to define real? Is anything absolutely real?

[Grif]

We all live in our own universes of our ears and our eyes. Everything could be different in someone else's universe, but only they know what they see and if they exist.

[Fkeu'itan]

Hmm. A very interesting proposition.

I agree with Grif. We all percieve our own universes in different ways - with varying levels of all 3 'realities' and it is impossible to explain to another how your own personal universe is percieved. They woud have to experience it first hand.

Here's an example I just thought up. When I was young, I was absolutely car-fanatical (I still am today to a degree). When I saw a car, I could and often still can, name the car almost instantly. My parents, who do not share the same interest, can not name car models off the top of their head. This leads me to wonder what it is they see when they see a car.
I personally see cars in almost a 'facial recognition' kind of way, even if I can only see a small a part of the car as a headlight or grille, I can often guess what the the car's make and model is. Maybe they don't see the car in the same way, perhaps they only see a shape or a form that shows it's a car, but leaves them one the wiser to the make or model of it. It's impossible for me to say because I can't percieve it from their eyes.

[rasomaso]

Fkeu'itan: well that's because they don't pay attention to the details and such, simply because they are not interested, so they don't know all the models. As for the shape itself, I bet they see the same thing as you and me (I was a car freak too ). The fact they can touch the shape and feel it the same way proves it, otherwise they would have to have a messed up motoric coordination and that would show elsewhere.

Another thing is a percieved color. How can you prove that someone is seeing any given color the way like you do? It's the same as with colorblind people, they think they actually see colors, but that's because they never "saw" colors.

As far as complete reality goes, my guess is all that we don't see are most likely only electromagnetic forces and such, plus paralel dimensions. Things like a desk are just the way we see them, which can be proved by cross checking our data from more different senses.

That was my practical side. My philosophical side tells me that nothing can be considered real and known as a fact.

All on my nokia.

[Sonoran Na'vi]

The perception of an object does not change the characteristics of that object. This is because an object either exists, or doesn't exist, independent of whether anyone is there to perceive it in the first place. For example, say a pine tree has grown in the middle of the forest. If no one is knowledgeable of this pine tree, that doesn't affect its existence, or any other characteristic of the pine tree. What may be considered the color of the pine needles (in most cases a shade of green) is basically a consensus of what to label a particular wave of light that we sense with sight. That wave is not going to change its nature/characteristics based on different perspectives. Thus, the reality that which we are perceiving is static even though there is not (always) a uniform perception of said reality.

[rasomaso]

Well yeah, the pine is reflecting only selective amount of waves, so it appears green. But how can you tell that what you see as green, is not seen by someone else as lets say orange? They would probably percieve it darker than your general orange to match the brightness, they may even see other percieved colors that you are unable to, to match the visible spectrum and not see some percieved colors you see, but you could both call it just green and agree with each other while both seeing the same wavelengths.

note: by percieved color I mean how the it appears to you, how your brain translates it into image. I don't even know if I spell it right, sorry. lol

[Sonoran Na'vi]

Originally Posted by rasomaso

Well yeah, the pine is reflecting only selective amount of waves, so it appears green. But how can you tell that what you see as green, is not seen by someone else as lets say orange? They would probably percieve it darker than your general orange to match the brightness, they may even see other percieved colors that you are unable to, to match the visible spectrum and not see some percieved colors you see, but you could both call it just green and agree with each other while both seeing the same wavelengths.

In order for there to be a difference in perceived color, there must be a difference in the way my senses are sensing the light wave as compared to someone that is sensing the same wave as a different color. This is assuming that we are just not applying different labels to the same perception. The wave length would still have the same characteristics no matter who is perceiving it.

One problem I see with your example is that if we agree on the color of the pine needles, it should be assumed that we are both seeing the same color. I actually see two possible problems: If they somehow viewed what I see as green as orange, it is either they are using a different label to describe the same perception or that they already have an idea of what orange is and would disagree with my assessment that the pine needles are green. This is because if they agree with me, every similar phenomenon that I see as green and they see as orange is just a difference in the application of a label and the perception is actually the same. If they see the pine needles as orange, due to coming to a different perception of pine needles, this means they already perceive orange (and green, too) and would not agree with me that the pine needles are green (because they would not be perceiving green as I would be). This would indicate that the difference in perception is due to differences in our ability to perceive the color of the pine needles, not in the phenomenon (light waves) that we are perceiving (This is assuming there is nothing physical between ourselves and the pine needles that may change the characteristics of the light wave for either person). So, in regard to your example, I don't see it possible for someone to perceive a pine needle as orange while I perceive it as green without running into either of the two problems I have outlined in this paragraph.

[rasomaso]

well my point is they could see your orange as green and your green as orange

[Sonoran Na'vi]

Originally Posted by rasomaso

well my point is they could see your orange as green and your green as orange

I understand your point. I was just pointing out that cases like the one you mention don't usually go unnoticed if there was a conversation over the color. Such a conversation would result in a disagreement over the color, thus the conclusion that for some reason we are not perceiving the color in a similar fashion.

[Muiä]

I think the universe has things that exist and have the same characteristics like Sonoran Na'vi says above. The only difference is how we perceive these things through our own senses. Humans have the same set of senses but some people may have characteristics such as colour-blindness. My partner has this and he perceives things differently to me, though not too much to alter what the object initially is. The world may look totally different through a dolphins senses to a humans senses, but things are still characteristic of what they are. There may even be life that we cannot even perceive, or any animals on this planet and our man made machines cannot see. But life may exist like this and we just haven't seen it. It doesn't mean it's not there. It just happened to evolve in such different places that nothing we know of can tell it is even there. Now that gets you thinking of the endless possibilities that are out there in the universe...

[rasomaso]

I guess you're right, now I realise that if lets say red appeared green to someone, it wouldn't have that agressive effect... oh well