Para Bellum - "Prepare For War."

[Sonoran Na'vi]

War seems to be one of those activities that sometimes happens due to the fact that most (if not all) resources are scarce. It seems that every side has a justification for their actions in war that they perceive as morally okay (or right). Wars in the traditional combat sense seem less likely for larger nations today as attacking another country's economy may be more effective.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Fkeu 'Awpo

Yeah right; you wouldn't last five minutes in a war.

Well actually, I've done laser tag. I got a very high score.
That, and I'm strategically minded. I'm an expert when it comes to tactics.

And Fkeu, my I say that Hypocrisy is one of our worst problems.

[Fkeu'itan]

Originally Posted by Spock

1. Is war necessary or useful?

2. In a global sense -not only from the perspective of the winners-, does the damage war produces justify the benefits obtained?

3.Are there any alternatives to war?

1. As far as i'm concerned, offensive war is not particularly useful. It serves no purpose other than to redraw imaginary boundaries and shift allegiances (In many cases, it doesn't even achieve this). Whether the power needs shifting is another matter however and is my country were under attack (As fkeua vrrtep said) i'm sure that defence is necessary.

2. There are no 'winners' in a war, you simply lose the least. I also believe that it is incredibly difficult to justify an organised mass-destruction of your own species.

3. I'd like to say yes. That every problem could be solved simply by realising that we all live on this one planet together and that murdering each other over ideals is insanity. That acceptance is the way forward. Unfortunately, I don't believe this could ever happen.

Originally Posted by Spock

I don't like war, but I am politically minded and I can easily define the benefits, in my opinion. But we must also ask, how do we measure justification? Morality? Religious teachings? The impact on human spirit?

As Fkeu 'Awpo said, I personally can't see any sense in starting a war over what are esentially imaginary factors. I can't see the benefits at all. Is power and global recognition for an elitist few and perhaps a slight economic prosperity really worth (in some cases) tens of millions of people's lives, not to mention the horrific effects on the planet and the sheer physical and fiscal cost of a large or long-term war?

Originally Posted by Spock

I stand behind "just" wars, that's where I stand. Wars that lead to moral stability. If peace is threatened then a I believe in pre-emptive strike. Where there are those that cause pain, I wish to be there so that they may not continue to do so. In my opinion, that is the definition for a just war.

I don't condone war, I find it abhorent, but I will accept it if it fits within my criteria of "just".

This is the problem... How to quantify what is a "just" war? "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." As they say. It's all relative to where you see the war and the reasons behind it. There are, of course, numerous examples where a war could indeed be considered "just", (I won't name examples as you can probably conclude those for yourselves) but to many, the cost of these wars were much greater than the beneficial after-effects so where can we draw the line and say "This is just, this is unjust". The fact is, you really can't.

[Advent]

HA. No, seriously. My brother's not the best sheep in the family. He's more like a goat. And he's been getting up to... stuff lately. I might PM you about it.

And I see your point, but games, whether physical or not, have actually been proven to have affect a soldiers quality in a firefight.
And but tactics, you completely miss my point. Plans? Stealth? Defense? Let's just say, that from playing RTS games my whole life, I know what works and what doesn't.

And Fkeu, I mean no offense at all, but don't put my spirits down when I am at least willing to put my life on the line.

[Fkeu 'Awpo]

Originally Posted by Advent

HA. No, seriously. My brother's not the best sheep in the family. He's more like a goat. And he's been getting up to... stuff lately. I might PM you about it.

And I see your point, but games, whether physical or not, have actually been proven to have affect a soldiers quality in a firefight.
And but tactics, you completely miss my point. Plans? Stealth? Defense? Let's just say, that from playing RTS games my whole life, I know what works and what doesn't.

And Fkeu, I mean no offense at all, but don't put my spirits down when I am at least willing to put my life on the line.

But you are not a soldier.

And they aren't going to let you take command of an entire battalion in real life.

Alas, I do not understand your motives behind risking your life. Nevertheless, more power to you.

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

True words, yo.

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

There are no 'winners' in a war, you simply lose the least.

But you're still the winner, in the sense that you lost less than the other guy.

I like the Chinese proverb better: "War not determine who is right; war determine who is left."

[Advent]

Well, you never know. I could be a commander one day.

I love this American quote:

"The objective of war is not to die for your country. It's to make the other bastard die for his."

That always makes me laugh.

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by Spock

1. Is war necessary or useful?

This is a wider ranging question than first appears.

a) Is war necessary As a species?
On a human level was it is necessary as it is part of who we are. One of the reasons that we are so dominant is that
i) Like all species, our instincts force us to strive to survive and prosper. As a species we all want to show our dominance either individually or as a group. War is one means to show that dominance.
ii) We have a killer instinct as a species.
iii) We often work togther when we fight.

b) Is war necessary politically
That depends on the relationship between the two opponents. Effectively if one side wants to fight, then war is inevitable.

It must be remebered that war is a political tool. It can permit political influence or control and is also a means to demonstrate the primeval desire to show superiority to rivals and peers.

c) Is war useful?
Politically, war is always useful to defend yourself against an enemy who is perceived top reduce your prosperity or freedom.

Originally Posted by Spock

2. In a global sense -not only from the perspective of the winners-, does the damage war produces justify the benefits obtained?

In hindsight, war has proved to be very useful with regards to technologocal advancement. Much peacetime technology is often based on technology used for war.

Examples are countless: the development of aircraft and automobiles accelerated during wars. The atomic bomb appeared before any nuclear power station. The rockets used for space exploration were developed in war time. The list probably goes on...

From a socio-political point of view, war can change the poliitics of a country. I believe Britain became a fairer country after WW2 because the normal people who contributed to the war wanted a fairer society.

Many germans are glad they lost WW. For many Germans today, the defeat in WW2 brought an end to generations of beliigerent governments and the beginning of a truly democratic and enligtened country. I am from the UK, but I beleive that germany is now one of the most entlightened countries in Europe. And that resulted from the shame and deeat of WW2.

Then there is a more dubious benefit. In a world with over-population, war can keep that population down.

Originally Posted by Spock

3.Are there any alternatives to war?

If both parties do not want to fight, then war will always be avoided in favour of a political settlement.

This is most interesting question.

I beleive that many humans, especially males, do have instinct to go to war. I actually believe that it is part of who we are as a species and why we are dominant.

As a male, I find the idea of war exciting on a deep instinctual level. Although on an intellectual level I find it horrific. So on a deeper level, we are interested in war. To the extent that the need for war is part of what makes us human and one of the reasons we are successful as a species.

Our objective should never be to surpress our war like spirirt. On the contrary we should strive to satisfy it, but without the devastation of a real war. In fact, we are already doing this.

In terms of our natural instinct to go to war, there are a couple of things that we do that satisfy that need:
1) Modern sporting events are a replacement for war. Individuals can support sportsmen or teams against others and experience the glory of victory and the devastation of defeat without fighting.
2) Games, whether board games, computer games or otherwise can satisfy the need to go to war without fighting for real.
3) Reading or watching war fiction or documentaries can satisfy our need to experience war.