Could someone hate Avatar, but still "see"?

[Tsyal Makto]

I know it is important to be tolerant, but it is still important to be viligent and recognize that there are people out there who don't See, regardless of their stance on Avatar or not. Take the TEA Party people for example - they are definitely one of the most non-Seeing groups out there, a group of true Sky people, and they have some views that are seriously dangerous - for people and the environment. To not recognize the dangers of people who do not See, regardless of Avatar, is ignorant as well.

[Fkeu'itan]

I think yes.

There are people out there who probably have never even heard of Avatar, yet still See. For me, the very definition of Seeing is to live in harmony with your surroundings and with nature, to be able to interpret what she is 'feeling', how she is reacting and to maintain a pure balance.

I'm convinced there are still people out there in the far corners of the world who live this way.

[Sempu]

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

For me, the very definition of Seeing is to live in harmony with your surroundings and with nature, to be able to interpret what she is 'feeling', how she is reacting and to maintain a pure balance.

I'm convinced there are still people out there in the far corners of the world who live this way.

I like your definition. I think this is what most people are using it to mean here. Interestingly, the movie does not state such a definition; there, "seeing" is about perceiving a person's inner self.

Have you read the "Original Wisdom" thread on A-F? The Sng'Oi people described in it are just like what you describe. Whether they still exist in meaningful numbers is questionable.

[rapunzel77]

The message of Avatar is shared by many different people who didn't necessarily like the movie. That is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. What I don't like is when "haters" make insulting comments and proceed to make fans feel guilty about liking Avatar. Those are the sort that I would avoid.

Another thing to keep in mind that there are people in this world who are very thoughtful and are very concerned with the direction this world is going in. These sorts are more suceptible to the message of Avatar. They come in all forms, even folks that are in the TEA party movement or are right-wing, etc. There are many who want to help the environment, live a more simple life, and are tired of how modern society is.

The other sort of people don't think often. They don't stop and ponder their role in life or try to expand their minds. These people can't be helped. Sure, you can try to show them the truth but it is up to them to accept it or reject it.

I think the key is listening and being respectful of other's views, even when they completely clash with your own.

[caveman]

Rapunzel, I couldn't agree with you more. Especially with the last part. It's easy to say "I'm right and you're wrong and we need to change the world now!" but that mentality is what causes most of the problems we face. Sure, I think we need change. But I also need to respect that others will disagree. And that respect is what allows for progress.

Also, Fkeu'tan, good response. I like your definition of seeing as well. Perhaps we should share our opinions on another thread...

[Tsyal Makto]

I know there are people who see on the right, the ones that I am refering to are people like Rush Limbaugh or Sarah Palin, people who couldn't give two ****s about the environment or the plight of people in modern society.

That is true, but we must also not lose sight that there are those who have views that are dangerous to the world, and we must draw the line on what is and is not acceptable. For example, the drill-baby-drillers. We have a dying Gulf as example that oil is a dangerous energy source, are we just supposed to accept their views that oil is OK? Or people who don't care about the environment? If we tolerated their ideals, we would have a world like 2154 on our hands. Or what about someone like Shamir Shabazz?

I guess the question I ask now is, is it possible to be overtolerant? I know that sounds bad, but one of my biggest problems with a lot of liberal pundints is that they are tolerant to the point to which they appear weak, and begin to compromise their own views. Most people can be shown to See, but we must not allow those who refuse to See - those who do not care about the environment or society- prevent change from coming to the world. There are people who are raping this planet, and we cannot allow them to continue simply in the name of tolerance.

Believe me, I'm not an intolerant person (in fact, I'm a very tolerant person), and I do believe that the majority of people can change, can See, but I do recognize that there are some who don't See, and won't ever See, and they are a problem. Sure, I respect their views, but I'm not going to let them walk all over mine.

This post probably sounds horrible, doesn't it?

[caveman]

No, it sounds just fine. I was never implying that we agree with what other people do, or compromise our views for the sake of being friendly. Think of it as a debate. Most of the time, people don't change their views. They become ignorant and close their minds to new ideas and keep their beliefs while disregarding everything else. However, sometimes in a good debate, each side will respect each other. Each side understands that just because their views clash on one particular subject, doesn't mean the other is a bad person. They listen and take in what each has to say, and only then will sometimes people change sides.

So my point is we shouldn't just slam the rest of the corporate world. We need to respect them, because whether we like it or not, any change is going to start with them.

This said, respect runs two ways. Just as much as we need to respect our enemies, our enemies need to respect us back. There are ways to earn respect. You have to be smart about how you sell your ideas. Although action is urgently needed for things like the gulf, irrational acts are just going to give your side a bad name.

Tsyal, I agree with what you said. But it is important to be truly open minded while you work towards your cause. Environmentalists and big business owners can shake hands. In fact, that is probably the only way things will get done - working together rather than fighting each other.

[Boomachucka]

I don't overly think so, not in the sense that it's presented in the movie. I mean, everybody's (supposed to) find their own path to that 'enlightenment', for lack of a better term- but most people who senselessly bash the movie are simply acting in an elitist manner and refuse to see the good that can be presented.

I think it's possible for somebody to share some of the ideals and ideology represented by Seeing, but it's not really on the same level or plane.

Now here's another thought, since we're (Well, I am, anyway...) thinking about different levels of Seeing/'enlightenment', etc... Do you think there are others out the who See far deeper than us that haven't seen Avatar?

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Boomachucka

Do you think there are others out the who See far deeper than us that haven't seen Avatar?

Hmmm, I like your thoughts.

To answer your question: Yes. Definitely. I don't know a lot about them, but I've read Buddhist monks or just Buddhist are the happiest people on Earth based on several studies. They live simply, don't want anything, no greed, just appreciate what they have and live in peace with the world around them. They are very open-minded, and have a strong sense of inner-balance through meditation. It doesn't have as much to do with the religious beliefs as much as the way of life.

But that's just one group of people. There are many great thinkers out there who would go above and beyond us in terms of understanding, or "seeing." Robert Frost even, or Thoreau/Walden would be some examples and of course they have never seen Avatar. Native Americans - the model for Na'vi would probably have a deep connection to nature etc, living in the woods and all.

I just look at it like this: I'm only 18 years old. I had a decent understanding and a great appreciation for life before Avatar. Then, after Avatar, my mind was everywhere. I became ignorant, thinking how badly life sucked and how much humans sucked etc. Then over the past 6 months I've developed all these thoughts into much more mature ideas, and they keep changing, keep becoming... more wise I suppose. So I just think there's gotta be someone out there just like me only 30 years down the road, not just 6 months. And they may never see Avatar but still develop that level of wisdom. Get what I'm saying?

[Advent]

Depends on what you mean by seeing. Could a blind man still See? Yes, if you mean Avatar.
So why can't an ordinary person See?

[Tsyal Makto]

Caveman - I know what you mean, but the problem is that people have been trying to reform the system for years while cooperating with corporations, and the problem is that corporations always win, and common people always lose. It happened for healthcare, it happened for banking reform, it is happening with the drilling moratorium, and it will likely happen with carbon limitations. You say we should cooperate with corporations, but they have never cooperated with us. Does that sound fair?

What is wrong with a nonviolent revolution? What is wrong with people simply saying "no more" and revolting against the corporations and government. The founding fathers said it themselves, a revolution in a situation like we are in now is not just something we should do, it is our duty.

[caveman]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

Caveman - I know what you mean, but the problem is that people have been trying to reform the system for years while cooperating with corporations, and the problem is that corporations always win, and common people always lose. It happened for healthcare, it happened for banking reform, it is happening with the drilling moratorium, and it will likely happen with carbon limitations. You say we should cooperate with corporations, but they have never cooperated with us. Does that sound fair?

What is wrong with a nonviolent revolution? What is wrong with people simply saying "no more" and revolting against the corporations and government. The founding fathers said it themselves, a revolution in a situation like we are in now is not just something we should do, it is our duty.

That is a valid point and gives me something to think about. I guess my advice might work for some problems but not others. Things like BP, yeah you might be right. Gotta think on this one I'm thinking about the everyday person more so than the big business owner who doesn't care.

I'd like to hear some other voices if anyone has an opinion. I mean, I believe in respect through arguments is the only way to solve anything, but TM has a point on business owners.

What was the original post about? Lol kinda forgot where I was going with it. I kinda just put a question out that was imo interesting, and I thought it would be interesting how people responded. Like the "no"s, I just think its kinda silly or something to think we are the only people who have this level of understanding - all based on a movie. But then I ask myself why did I even start this thread? What was I trying to achieve? And I don't know but it did start some interesting talk. I like it.

Sorry about the rant there I just never have faith in my threads,