The Original Sin. (Religion)

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Originally Posted by Lyra

Now, in the bible it talks of 'Adam' and 'Eve' in the Garden of Eden. Most of us know this story, and that Eve ate the forbidden apple and both her and adam got banished from the garden and forced to live on earth.

Now, I wish to note something here, I really do believe this to be a metaphor, it wasn't a sin. Eve didn't 'sin' by going after the apple, instead she wanted the apple, not because she wanted to disobey, but because it was something she couldn't have. It's a flaw of human nature, but it's what makes us human.

Eve didn't sin, instead she followed her instinct, which led to her and adam's demise.
-> All Humans have flaws, but that doesn't make them bad.

Also the apple can be seen as not an apple, but as 'intelligence.' Eve wanted to know how things worked so grasped after this 'information.' and was caught by god, it's literally an old version of exactly what's going on today!

You are right, but yet completely wrong, The Ten Commandments say, Honor thy father and mother, I.E. Dont disobey them, Eve disobeyed her "father" by eating the fruit after they were told not to by God, therefore going against the Ten Commandments, therefore being a sin.

[Woodsprite]

^I sort of agree with that, but the Ten Commandments weren't written yet. I think it was just obvious that you don't disobey a Being that created you. I mean, that'd be like a CD player that refuses to play. It either gets fixed, or if it can't be fixed, is thrown out.

Same existed with Adam and Eve to an extent. Since they couldn't be "fixed" (since the damage had been done, and they disobeyed God) they were "thrown out" of the garden.

[Mika]

Ok so I just picked up a book on the Kabbalah and randomly opened it which just happened to be a chapter on the Kabbalah's interpretation on Adam and Eve story.

Summarized: It talks about the worlds of the Creator - which Kabbalah refers to as five spiritual worlds each like a rung on a ladder and the fifth world being the one where there are no limitations, or no end to our perception of the Creator. It talks about the Creator being the source of All-Giving and Creation's desire to be recieving of this giving.
And that our life purpose is to learn to want to be 'giving' like and back to the Creator.
Then it moves into describing also our desire to know the Creator, or it defines it as knowing the 'Thought of Creation' which is the Creator's desire to give. With each of the Worlds is considered to have an 'elevated' sense of desiring to give, but each 'concealed', meaning as one increased their desire to give to others and to the Creator, only then does the next World open up its spiritual mysteries for that individual.

Adam and Eve are considered to the two parts of one being (spirit and soul). Adam was commanded not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge so he would not entangle himself with desires he couldn't handle. But his internal Eve, told him that if he did eat, he would be able to give to the Creator even more than if he didn't. She was right, but what Eve didn't know was that in creating a stronger desire to 'give' that one needed to have an equally strong ability to enjoy the Creator's Light and apparently Adam didn't have that. So then the story is about asking the question why would the Creator not tell Adam that he couldn't handle such desires, and why would the Creator want Adam to fail. Apparently according to the Kabbalah it was to 'teach' Adam about his own desires, Adam had to be exposed to them by the experience of that desire feels like. So Adam learned that he was egotistic in his desires and without the protection of the 'veils' of concealment between the worlds, left 'naked' spiritually. The Kabbalah focuses on that being outside the Garden of Eden is now a teaching opportunity, for the 'memory' of the story is a tool to assist any person wishing to discover the Creator by learning to correct or redirect their desires from egoism to selflessness.

Now here is an interesting part of the Kabbahla teachings apparently the first step in the correction of Adam's soul was to split it into pieces, small bits of deisre that weren't so hard to correct. For this reason it says his soul shattered into no less than 600,000 pieces and it continues to shatter and splinter and today we have as many pieces of his soul as there are people on Earth. Yes it empasises .. we're all parts of the same or 'one soul'.

So Adam original desires were united as one in a common intention to the Creator, but when the intentions became directed towards self-gratification thats when the separation began to occur and the single one soul became divided. All souls therefore are considered as extentions of the one soul of Adam.

Anyway I had never heard that interpretation before but found it quite fascinating and thought I'd add to the discussion.

[Lyra]

Everything written here is very interesting. The concept of Sex being the original sin does make sense, in a way. I remember reading that the original sin opened the way to sex being thought of as shameful, not of something normal, something to be celebrated.

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by Lyra

Everything written here is very interesting. The concept of Sex being the original sin does make sense, in a way. I remember reading that the original sin opened the way to sex being thought of as shameful, not of something normal, something to be celebrated.

I'm not sure if that would make sense since sex isn't meant to be wrong and shameful. It doesn't make sense in light of the story of Adam and Eve. At least according to my faith, original sin resulted in a break between God and man and lost innocence. It was how evil entered the world. Sex was always meant to be good and special and it isn't in any way a punishment. I guess I haven't read up on why some people would have considered it to be the original sin.

[josie20]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

I'm not sure if that would make sense since sex isn't meant to be wrong and shameful. It doesn't make sense in light of the story of Adam and Eve. At least according to my faith, original sin resulted in a break between God and man and lost innocence. It was how evil entered the world. Sex was always meant to be good and special and it isn't in any way a punishment. I guess I haven't read up on why some people would have considered it to be the original sin.

Exactly, a loss of innocence. It wasn't so much the physical act that was the sin, it was the fact that they separated themselves from God and His glory. They did this willingly, and when we willingly disobey God we remove ourselves from Him and His protection. God doesn't judge us when we disobey. He can just no longer protect us, and so we have to "reap what we so" A.K.A Karma.

But yeah, Adam and Eve separated themselves from God, and THAT was the original sin.

The end.

[neytirifanboy]

Personally, I believe that the God of the Old Testament is a Demon, as a true God would never conern herself with the intracacies of human live. Only a Demon can have such concerns and desire for power. Nor would a true Goddess every waste time claiming to be creator.

On that basis, the supposed enemies of the Demon such as Eve, the Snake and even in the Garden of Eden and even Satan are the true heros as they stood against the Demon's power. While the stooges of the Demon such as Abraham and David represent the forces of evil.

So the original sin is, in effect, original virtue.

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

Personally, I believe that the God of the Old Testament is a Demon, as a true God would never conern herself with the intracacies of human live. Only a Demon can have such concerns and desire for power. Nor would a true Goddess every waste time claiming to be creator.

Interesting. I'm not sure if you know this but this sounds like Marcionism. The Marcions were a group of people who lived during the 2nd-4th centuries. They believed that God in the OT was a devil while God in the NT was good. They had similar beliefs to the gnostics.

On that basis, the supposed enemies of the Demon such as Eve, the Snake and even in the Garden of Eden and even Satan are the true heros as they stood against the Demon's power. While the stooges of the Demon such as Abraham and David represent the forces of evil.

So the original sin is, in effect, original virtue.

Just to let you know, this belief is nothing new. Marcion thought the same thing. He was a gnostic. However, in addition to believing this about the God of the OT, he also rejected the material world. He believed that only the spiritual world mattered and that was it. To him, the material world (ie. nature, etc) was evil.

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

Interesting. I'm not sure if you know this but this sounds like Marcionism. The Marcions were a group of people who lived during the 2nd-4th centuries. They believed that God in the OT was a devil while God in the NT was good. They had similar beliefs to the gnostics.

Yes, it is certainly not original. The Cathars believed this and that is where I got the inspiration for.

I think the Cathar theory in this particular aspect makes complete sense. For me the Old Testament is the book of the Devil (although I don't believe in the Devil).

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by neytirifanboy

Yes, it is certainly not original. The Cathars believed this and that is where I got the inspiration for.

I think the Cathar theory in this particular aspect makes complete sense. For me the Old Testament is the book of the Devil (although I don't believe in the Devil).

This is interesting because the Cathars went further and maintained that anything material was evil. Therefore, sex was evil, our bodies were evil, etc. They believed only the spirit was good. That was also one of the other reasons why they didn't like the God of the OT. He created matter.

[neytirifanboy]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

This is interesting because the Cathars went further and maintained that anything material was evil. Therefore, sex was evil, our bodies were evil, etc. They believed only the spirit was good. That was also one of the other reasons why they didn't like the God of the OT. He created matter.

Yes, I am not a Cathar. But I thought their view of God and the old Testament was interesting.

[Human No More]

AKA they didn't do what they were told. How convenient considering what it's a part of...

[josie20]

Ha ha ha! Oh yeah, THAT argument.

Originally Posted by Human No More

AKA they didn't do what they were told. How convenient considering what it's a part of...

What's so bad about doing what you're told? If you're told to do something by someone who loves you, it's because they want to protect you from the consequences of disobedience, not because they want slaves.

This is very important to understand, the consequences of disobedience isn't a judgment. Here's an example I just came up with: If your mom tells you not to play in the street and you decide to anyway and get hit by a car, your mom wasn't driving the car. She didn't tell the car to hit you. She didn't want to car to hit you. You just did something stupid because you didn't listen to what your mom said. She couldn't do anything about it because you disobeyed. She's not looking for a slave to obey her every command. She just wants to keep you safe.

It's the same way with God. He's not looking for a slave to obey His every command. He just wants you to be safe. But if you disobey and "play in the street", there's nothing He can do to stop that car.

Does that make sense? Or am I rambling nonsensically?

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by josie20

Ha ha ha! Oh yeah, THAT argument.



What's so bad about doing what you're told? If you're told to do something by someone who loves you, it's because they want to protect you from the consequences of disobedience, not because they want slaves.

Yes, but that's not necessarily the same from people who actually have something to gain from others' following them.

This is very important to understand, the consequences of disobedience isn't a judgment. Here's an example I just came up with: If your mom tells you not to play in the street and you decide to anyway and get hit by a car, your mom wasn't driving the car. She didn't tell the car to hit you. She didn't want to car to hit you. You just did something stupid because you didn't listen to what your mom said. She couldn't do anything about it because you disobeyed. She's not looking for a slave to obey her every command. She just wants to keep you safe.

It's the same way with God. He's not looking for a slave to obey His every command. He just wants you to be safe. But if you disobey and "play in the street", there's nothing He can do to stop that car.

Does that make sense? Or am I rambling nonsensically?

That makes no sense, being anti-sex is actually a bad thing since it is a danger to survival, not to mention the simple fact that you can't go against your own biology.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Human No More

That makes no sense, being anti-sex is actually a bad thing since it is a danger to survival, not to mention the simple fact that you can't go against your own biology.

...?

But sex is a good thing. We've established that, sex wasn't the original sin. See post explaining concept (the edited-in part).