The "Ground Zero Mosque"

[Tsyal Makto]

Ok, all this talk in the media over this damn thing is really getting to me, especially when we have much, much, MUCH bigger issues facing us.

Anyway, my position is, let them build the damn thing and let's move on, and here's why.

- It's not AT the WTC, it's 4 blocks from the world trade center. That seems far enough away for me.

- There's nothing "hallowed" about the land around the WTC. Yes, it was a sad disaster, but the land wasn't made hallowed by it. If it's so sacred, why are things like a strip club allowed there. A mosque would probably be the most sacred thing there.

- There are already two mosques in the neighborhood, one on the street that this proposed mosque will go. Nobody's raising a stink about them.

- The plans for this mosque date back to before 9/11. Even if 9/11 didn't happen, this thing would still have been built.

- There are other cases of structures being built in areas where the same people attacking the area. There's a Buddhist temple near Pearl Harbor, and Christian Churches in Nagasaki. No controversy then, why now.

- The people who oppose it have a long history of xenophobia.

So, what do you guys think?

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

Anyway, my position is, let them build the damn thing and let's move on, and here's why.

- It's not AT the WTC, it's 4 blocks from the world trade center. That seems far enough away for me.

Obviously you've never had a family who died at ground zero from Islamic terrorists. You can see 4 blocks away just when on the second floor of any average building. You can probably walk 4 blocks in 5 minutes.

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

- There's nothing "hallowed" about the land around the WTC. Yes, it was a sad disaster, but the land wasn't made hallowed by it. If it's so sacred, why are things like a strip club allowed there. A mosque would probably be the most sacred thing there.

A mosque represents the religion of the people who murdered almost 3,000 people 4 blocks away. And you don't think that's inappropriate? It's insensitive and foolish.

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

- There are already two mosques in the neighborhood, one on the street that this proposed mosque will go. Nobody's raising a stink about them.

Maybe because they've existed for the past 40 years...?

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

- The plans for this mosque date back to before 9/11. Even if 9/11 didn't happen, this thing would still have been built.

That's not true. The funding started in 2004. The plans weren't made before 9/11; where'd you read that?

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

- There are other cases of structures being built in areas where the same people attacking the area. There's a Buddhist temple near Pearl Harbor, and Christian Churches in Nagasaki. No controversy then, why now.

The attackers of Pearl Harbor weren't motivated by Buddhism, which is a peaceful religion, and has no violence attached to it. The bombing of Nagasaki was not caused by any Christian attack; Christianity had nothing to do with the bombing.

Islam was the primary reason why the WTC was attacked. There's no other reason. It was, in effect, caused by people who acted specifically for the purpose of Islam.

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

- The people who oppose it have a long history of xenophobia.

Well that's an outright insensitive lie.

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

So, what do you guys think?

In my humble opinion, I think you're completely wrong in every way possible.

I agree that the have the right to build this mosque. No one argues this. No one. But the "wisdom" in this decision (as President Obama put it) is very, very poor. Even some other Muslims have spoken out against it, knowing full well the imperceptive, uncaring choice the planners have made.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Idk what else to add except, pwnd.

[Isard]

Yeah woodsprite, because every Muslim is a terrorist! (your comment about xenophobia reeeaaally makes that ironic, because claiming that all Muslims are terrorists is pure religious hatespeech right there)

I say this to people who are complaining about this.

Last I checked, I lived in America, land of the free. (its in our anthem) Not "Land of the free except for Muslims"



I'm actually very surprised and angry at this woodsprite. I knew you were conservative, but I didnt know you were that kind.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Yeah woodsprite, because every Muslim is a terrorist! (your comment about xenophobia reeeaaally makes that ironic, because claiming that all Muslims are terrorists is pure religious hatespeech right there)

See, this is the weird thing... Every time I say anything, you always manage to twist what I say six ways 'till Sunday. It's really amazing; I applaud your ability.

I never claimed all Muslims were terrorists. Ever. Here, I'll quote myself so you can read it again (and not just skim-n-scan through; emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

A mosque represents the religion of the people who murdered almost 3,000 people 4 blocks away.

I made perfectly clear that Muslims committed the act. NOT that all Muslims are responsible. You might as well say I'm anti-Christian for condemning the Crusaders, or the abortion clinic bombers. Here's another quote to read carefully (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Islam was the primary reason why the WTC was attacked. There's no other reason. It was, in effect, caused by people who acted specifically for the purpose of Islam.

Again, I specifically referred to the particular people who acted, not the entire religion as a whole. Many Muslims are peaceful. Others interpret the Koran differently. Either way, the Muslims who did this declared the act in accordance with Islam.

I also find this other quote by me very interesting, since it completely seals my point on how not all Muslims are bad (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

...the "wisdom" in this decision (as President Obama put it) is very, very poor. Even some other Muslims have spoken out against it, knowing full well the imperceptive, uncaring choice the planners have made.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

I'm actually very surprised and angry at this woodsprite. I knew you were conservative, but I didnt know you were that kind.

This is getting quite annoying. Why is it that every time I write something, you have this desperate urge to fubar my post? Please, I kindly ask that you please overcome this strange desire to try unsuccessfully to kill my posts without actually reading them first. And now I've had to spend my time copy-pasting statements I already made, just so you'll take the time to read them. Again.

Why, Aihwa? Why?

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Certain people lose the "freedom" when they ram 2 jets into buildings, not just full of americans, but people of multiple nationalities. I say they can put it up, but good luck trying to keep all the vandals away. My guess, it wont last long.

[Gunny]

Im 100% with Woodsprite and dont really have anything else to add to that at all.

One thing I may add, what is the major deal with them having to have it built so close to the WTC? This decision only provokes things they know that otherwise they would have chosen to build further away where this commotion would not have happened.

[Isard]

I read it, and heard you trying to restrict the rights of a group based on the actions of a very small sect of their membership.

Should Christians be denied rights based on the actions of the horribly misguided?

Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

I read it...

No, you apparently didn't. (See next excerpt.)

Originally Posted by Aihwa

...and heard you trying to restrict the rights of a group based on the actions of a very small sect of their membership.

I never wanted to restrict anything. Here, I'll quote myself again (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

I agree that the have the right to build this mosque. No one argues this. No one. But the "wisdom" in this decision (as President Obama put it) is very, very poor.

Why Aihwa? Why?

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Should Christians be denied rights based on the actions of the horribly misguided?

Christian terrorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No, they shouldn't be denied rights. No one should. (See above.)

But if one of these terrorist groups decided to build a church right next to a site where they committed terrorist activities, I would say they have very poor judgement. Strangely enough, however, is the fact that every time an Islam-based army or terrorist group (from centuries ago, btw) conquered an area, they built a mosque over it, next to it, or in it (like in a city). It was common practice.

This isn't done much anymore because Islam isn't trying to conquer anyone (except those claiming all Jews must be completely annihilated), but I can't help but wonder if the real reason for this ground zero mosque is for that purpose. I'm just thinking out loud, though.

[Sonoran Na'vi]

I think Woodsprite did a good job of outlining the reasons some people don't agree with the building of a mosque roughly 500 to 800 feet from the World Trade Center. I believe it is reasonable for a mosque to be built in that spot if we only regard the laws of our country; however, the argument is not centered on the legality or the right to build the mosque, but rather on the sensitivity of the project. The Buddhist temple and Christian church analogies do not work because the bombing of Pearl Harbor and the atomic bomb attacks on Japan were not done in the name of any religion. The issue here is that the attacks of 9/11 were done with strong Islamic influence and a mosque represents the religion of Islam. It is a question of sensitivity. What makes it a hard issue to deal with is the subjectivity of people's sensitivities.

[josie20]

I'm on the fence with this issue. As someone who promotes equality I say, "Let them build it. You can't restrict their rights." However, as an American I say, "No way in hell!" I can't be expected to forget the horrors that were caused by a few evil extremists. However, they were just a few people, not a representation of everyone in their religion. Then again, they are using a strict interpretation of their religion, which I find rather frightening.

BTW, these are just my feelings and are not necessarily based on legality(especially the second bit )

[Isard]

That's because back in the day, when you conquered an area, it was yours, political and religious power/influence spread to the region.

If sensitivity is your issue, I have some pretty hardhearted opinions on that. It was ten years ago. HTFU. Three thousand people died, that's allot, a whole lot. But it pales in comparison with other death tolls. We've lost almost twice that in the ME amongst our Armed Forces.

How long are Muslims going to be held at arms length over this? Twenty years? Thirty? When are we going to stop questioning their motives? Where does it end?

Just like KKK members are allowed to have their little parades, and anarchists can have their picnics. I have a "sensitivity issue" when it comes to them, but I can deal with their BS by ignoring them.

If a group of private citizens want to put up a building, they can put up their god damned building. Does this mosque infringe on your own rights or the rights of another in any way?
(that answer is going to be a no, btw...)

Then there's nothing, I repeat, nothing, that you should be allowed to do to interfere. Ignore it and move on with your life. Find something decent to get upset at the government about.




In closing, there's a word about cow-towing to "sensitivity" its called "political correctness", it cuts both ways. Pushing this building through to try and appear kind to Islam is BS, but so is blocking it because some people are crying over its location. You're just asking them to be "Politically correct" in their building location.

[Sonoran Na'vi]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

If sensitivity is your issue, I have some pretty hardhearted opinions on that. It was ten years ago. HTFU. Three thousand people died, that's allot, a whole lot. But it pales in comparison with other death tolls. We've lost almost twice that in the ME amongst our Armed Forces.

The death toll in other events is a red herring to the issue.

How long are Muslims going to be held at arms length over this? Twenty years? Thirty? When are we going to stop questioning their motives? Where does it end?

This is a strawman, as the general concern over the mosque is not about the motives of Muslims.

Just like KKK members are allowed to have their little parades, and anarchists can have their picnics. I have a "sensitivity issue" when it comes to them, but I can deal with their BS by ignoring them.

No one is arguing against people being allowed to practice Islam, which is what your analogy matches up to. Now if your analogy was regarding the location of these little parades and picnics, then it would be more relevant.

If a group of private citizens want to put up a building, they can put up their god damned building. Does this mosque infringe on your own rights or the rights of another in any way?
(that answer is going to be a no, btw...)

You're correct. But this is a red herring.

In closing, there's a word about cow-towing to "sensitivity" its called "political correctness", it cuts both ways. Pushing this building through to try and appear kind to Islam is BS, but so is blocking it because some people are crying over its location. You're just asking them to be "Politically correct" in their building location.

It's not that simple. People are sensitive to everything, the only variable is to what degree and extreme (if applicable). Some people will be indifferent (low sensitivity) while others will have concerns (higher sensitivity). The question is whether or not these concerns are justified.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

If sensitivity is your issue, I have some pretty hardhearted opinions on that. It was ten years ago. HTFU.

I heard this same kind of comment last year... from a 12 y/o who didn't really grasp what 9/11 was.

Have you lost someone dear to you from the 9/11 attacks? Were you there when it happened? Did you see the bodies? Did you help with the relief?

I didn't do any of those things, but that doesn't make me care less about it. The attack was like no other: it was America's first unprovoked assault on its soil during peacetime. Thousands of innocents were killed in the name of Allah.

The fact that it happened 9 (not 10) years ago further supports why we should still be in mourning for those lost. The families of those who died are all still alive. It's like saying in 1956, "Toughen up you pussy Jews, the holocaust only happened a decade ago."

That's what you're saying, in effect, and I'd love to get a camera out just to take a picture of you saying the words you just said here, to the faces of one of the families of the 9/11 attacks.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Three thousand people died, that's allot, a whole lot. But it pales in comparison with other death tolls. We've lost almost twice that in the ME amongst our Armed Forces.

Comparing an unprovoked attack directed specifically at innocent civilians to a declaration of war is laughable.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

How long are Muslims going to be held at arms length over this? Twenty years? Thirty? When are we going to stop questioning their motives? Where does it end?

We don't question Muslims, we question Muslim extremist actions (Islamic terrorism).

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Just like KKK members are allowed to have their little parades, and anarchists can have their picnics. I have a "sensitivity issue" when it comes to them, but I can deal with their BS by ignoring them.

I don't condone the KKK. Their actions are inexcusable (and unBiblical). But did the KKK murder 3,000 innocent civilians in one day?

Originally Posted by Aihwa

If a group of private citizens want to put up a building, they can put up their god damned building. Does this mosque infringe on your own rights or the rights of another in any way?
(that answer is going to be a no, btw...)

It doesn't "infringe" anything. No one argues this. No one has ever argued this. But you apparently have no feeling or care for the people whose sisters, brothers, sons, daughters, moms, and dads died less than a decade ago. And that, to me, is disgusting. Building a mosque in that area is a foolish, idiotic thing to do. Saying they "have a right" doesn't make the act less-stupid. It's like saying you have a "right to free speech" to give an excuse to remain sitting next to a girl at a table while you insult her family.

Sure "free speech" is a right, but shouldn't we, as rational beings, have some sort of red light that turns on in our mind when we're taking something too far? Please tell me American intellect isn't going the way of the dodo.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Then there's nothing, I repeat, nothing, that you should be allowed to do to interfere. Ignore it and move on with your life. Find something decent to get upset at the government about.

If you had a loved one who was murdered in the WTC, you might understand.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

In closing, there's a word about cow-towing to "sensitivity" its called "political correctness", it cuts both ways. Pushing this building through to try and appear kind to Islam is BS, but so is blocking it because some people are crying over its location. You're just asking them to be "Politically correct" in their building location.

Is this seriously the extent of your logic surrounding "political correctness"? If you walk into a busy highway, are you being an idiot? Yes. If you walk into a Black Panther joint and yell "WHITE POWER!" just because you have the "freedom of speech", are you being an idiot? Yes. "Political correctness" has nothing to do with it.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

Im speechless about what has just gone down. Woodspite, you would make a good lawyer.