Your Opinion on the Sea Shepherds

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Advent

Well, most of them are. Occasionally some good ones come along.
In fact, a prime minister candidate for Australia, Tony Abbott, said that he doesn't always say the truth and has to lie sometimes, and he missed getting elected by only a few seats.

There's one example. Have others?

[Woodsprite]

...Let's not go into the political realm with this; keep it on the whale activists/terrorists/good guys/bad guys discussion.

[Sight Unseen]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

Ofcourse they do. They try to protect a natural resource (property of the whole world) from being stolen. Normal people would have stopped shooting or advancing with their boats but the whalers just keep on, disregarding the activists and their safety. That is indeed an act of piracy.

I agree, I wish I had enough room to quote all your posts for truth. However, there is one thing I disagree with. Whales aren't anyones' property, they are animals. Part of nature. The whalers aren't just stealing whales, they are killing these huge, majestic, intelligent creatures and turning them into frozen chunks of meat.

Really though, if the whalers weren't out there destroying the environment, there would be no need for Sea Shepherd. In the words of Paul Watson, "Were in the business of putting ourselves out of business." It's not like they're out there in the middle of the Antarctic for personal gain. They're out there fighting for something they believe in.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

There's one example. Have others?

I find that example enough. He admitted that he lied, and people found him the most trustworthy politician ever.

We should stay on topic though. If you wish to debate about politicians, make a thread.

[redpaintednavi]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

So if I were to go play chicken on the highway the driver of the car that kills me is at fault? That makes perfect sense. I suppose arms manufacturers are responsible for suicide deaths as well.

You still do not see it, do you? Sea Shepherd is defending common property against pirates that violates international agreements. They have to block the way of the whalers otherwise the whalers will kill the whales. So until the politicians start doing their job and enforce the protection of whales, Sea Shepherd will continue to save whales.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

"You can see for yourself" That's a piss poor argument. You're the one dishing out propaganda, making claims without a shred of evidence to back them up. You're prepared to commit acts of violence to achieve your goals, you defend dumb-asses who are trying to commit suicide for attention, and slandering politicians as a whole.

If you did understand just some of the workings of politics you would know that there are a lot of corrupt politicians out there. If you had a clue of how the political economic system works you would see the blatant corruption. Yes, if you even bothered to open a newspaper or read up about the relations between capital and politicians you would see it.

But those who do not want to see, they do not see.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Want to know the difference between those natives and you? They're not going to get violent. See, they realize that terrorism accomplishes nothing, you obviously haven't matured past the "hit it till it goes away" phase. They'd be disgusted with you and your methods.

Actually there has been violence in Peru with several deaths already, so sometimes the native peoples actually are forced to get violent in extreme situations in defending their land. Just read up on these matters.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

You still do not see it, do you? Sea Shepherd is defending common property against pirates that violates international agreements. They have to block the way of the whalers otherwise the whalers will kill the whales. So until the politicians start doing their job and enforce the protection of whales, Sea Shepherd will continue to save whales.

Right, I'm defending the earth from the evil automobiles that release CO2, I can has medal nao? After I get out of the hospital of course, assuming I survive. Breaking the law is breaking the law, there are no exceptions to this. Tbh, I'm really curious whats going to happen when one of them finally manages to die doing this, maybe people will realize that this isn't a little sideshow anymore and arrest the Sea Shepherds.

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

If you did understand just some of the workings of politics you would know that there are a lot of corrupt politicians out there. If you had a clue of how the political economic system works you would see the blatant corruption. Yes, if you even bothered to open a newspaper or read up about the relations between capital and politicians you would see it.

But those who do not want to see, they do not see.

They also say you can see conspiracy theories everywhere if you look hard enough. You refuse to bring charges against everyone, I'm not sure where you're from, but in the US, people are considered innocent until you provide evidence to back your charges. I want names and facts, not "All politicians are corrupt silly child, just listen to me, I'm a bastion of goodness and light ha ha ha..."

So, whenever your ready to present some corruption charges, go ahead, until then, arguing this point with me is moot. If you have no proof, don't say anything.

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

Actually there has been violence in Peru with several deaths already, so sometimes the native peoples actually are forced to get violent in extreme situations in defending their land. Just read up on these matters.

Fun. I really hope the few that are getting violent calm down. Again, violence doesn't endear people to the rest of the world. Just look again at the IRA, at their core, they just want a free Ireland, but they're the commonly accepted villains, because of their actions.

Zealots cause nothing but trouble. I have never seen, nor heard, of extremists getting what they want until all their enemies are dead or defeated through force. (such as revolutions, or genocides)

[redpaintednavi]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Right, I'm defending the earth from the evil automobiles that release CO2, I can has medal nao? After I get out of the hospital of course, assuming I survive. Breaking the law is breaking the law, there are no exceptions to this. Tbh, I'm really curious whats going to happen when one of them finally manages to die doing this, maybe people will realize that this isn't a little sideshow anymore and arrest the Sea Shepherds.

Some laws are just a result of corruption, other laws just omitt important aspects because of inability to make descisions. Japan are actually also breaking agreements, or rather they place themselves outside internationaal laws and agreements through not signing them (as USA put themselves outside international law by not allowing international courts judge their soldiers for criminal acts in war).
International law is a grey zone, a nomansland, often because the inability of politicians to agree about those laws and inability to enforce them. So the whalers stand outside the law as pirates. And Sea Shepherd has the right to hinder pirates from operating.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

They also say you can see conspiracy theories everywhere if you look hard enough. You refuse to bring charges against everyone, I'm not sure where you're from, but in the US, people are considered innocent until you provide evidence to back your charges. I want names and facts, not "All politicians are corrupt silly child, just listen to me, I'm a bastion of goodness and light ha ha ha..."

So, whenever your ready to present some corruption charges, go ahead, until then, arguing this point with me is moot. If you have no proof, don't say anything.

Well, just google the word corruption or borrow some of the many books that are written about that subject. You could probably find some in your nearest library.

By the way, right now two activists in Japan are facing jail because they tried to expose corruption in the Japanese whaling industry. And you shall be aware of that Japanese politicains and businessmen have been involved in many large corruption scandals the latest years. Just read up on this subject.

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Fun. I really hope the few that are getting violent calm down. Again, violence doesn't endear people to the rest of the world. Just look again at the IRA, at their core, they just want a free Ireland, but they're the commonly accepted villains, because of their actions.

Zealots cause nothing but trouble. I have never seen, nor heard, of extremists getting what they want until all their enemies are dead or defeated through force. (such as revolutions, or genocides)

Well, people actually have the right to self defence. They cannot just let their land and territory get invaded, their natural resources stolen and their environment destroyed. Everyone has the right to self defence against invaders and land thieves.

Just imagine if Pandora actually had been a real place. According to your logic the Na´vi would then have been terrorists, and also Jake and the other humans who supported them. And perhaps the RDA just followed the law (instigated by corrupt politicians).
But still one must follow the law, eh?

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

Well, people actually have the right to self defence. They cannot just let their land and territory get invaded, their natural resources stolen and their environment destroyed. Everyone has the right to self defence against invaders and land thieves.

Just imagine if Pandora actually had been a real place. According to your logic the Na´vi would then have been terrorists, and also Jake and the other humans who supported them. And perhaps the RDA just followed the law (instigated by corrupt politicians).
But still one must follow the law, eh?

Human laws don't apply on Pandora. It's the Na'vi's world, they decide what goes on there. Not humans.

You're right about self-defence, and if a whale destroyed a whaling ship, I'd probably laugh.
Yes, I get that they're doing it outside international agreements, but when people back in the countries doing it see that people from their country, who they feel a connection to no matter how small, are being attacked, it changes their attitude from being neutral or even opposed to supporting their people against these attacks. It causes politicians to want to be harder on the pirates instead of the whalers, and people to be more supportive. It associates legitimate opposition campaigns with the pirates and makes it harder for people to listen to them.
They're hurting their own cause. If they tried to actually reach the people, show them the facts, get their message across rather than make attacks on national shipping in international waters, they'd turn a lot more people against the whaling.

[Fosus]

Originally Posted by Human No More

If they tried to actually reach the people, show them the facts, get their message across rather than make attacks on national shipping in international waters, they'd turn a lot more people against the whaling.

Remember that Sea Shepherds is not the only group working for the cause. There are many other groups who have done exactly what you say for years: try to reach the people, show the facts, get the message across.. And yet, how many of these "patience-minded" groups have you ever heard of?

Like I said before. People go violent when there's no other way to get attention anymore. Whether good or bad but attention nonetheless. It's easy to say they would achieve more by talking but that's just not true.

[Human No More]

I've heard of a few. As I said further down in my post, the truth is, people ignore them BECAUSE people like Sea Shepherd give them a bad image, because they are negative about their efforts to make a difference, because they make anyone concerned with the environment look like a dangerous nutter.

[Fosus]

Originally Posted by Human No More

I've heard of a few. As I said further down in my post, the truth is, people ignore them BECAUSE people like Sea Shepherd give them a bad image, because they are negative about their efforts to make a difference, because they make anyone concerned with the environment look like a dangerous nutter.

That's not _the truth_, that's your own hypothesis, and it doesn't work like that. Those who are already concerned about whales will not just "go ignorant" because of an activist group. And people who have not heard about the whaling problem will hear about it and get concerned. Those who don't give a crap wouldn't care about the facts either.

I'm still not saying I like what they do, I'm just pointing out I understand their motives.

[redpaintednavi]

Originally Posted by Sight Unseen

However, there is one thing I disagree with. Whales aren't anyones' property, they are animals. Part of nature. The whalers aren't just stealing whales, they are killing these huge, majestic, intelligent creatures and turning them into frozen chunks of meat.
.

Yes I agree with you, they are living sentient beings. I just likened them with property in the way that I regard the whole world as a resource that we have to protect, not kill and destroy. We are all parts of of a system where we all belong to each other.

[redpaintednavi]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Human laws don't apply on Pandora. It's the Na'vi's world, they decide what goes on there. Not humans.

Also here on Earth human laws are created concepts that many times goes against the laws of nature. If corrupt politicians in and outside Japan descide it is allowed to kill whales it is the same as if corrupt politicians write laws that make it OK to kill the Na´vi and mine unobtanium.

Originally Posted by Human No More

They're hurting their own cause. If they tried to actually reach the people, show them the facts, get their message across rather than make attacks on national shipping in international waters, they'd turn a lot more people against the whaling.

Sea Shepherd also do a lot of campaigning, spread information, explaining their cause and winning support for it. Do not forget that it is donations from many people in many countries that finance their activities.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

Also here on Earth human laws are created concepts that many times goes against the laws of nature. If corrupt politicians in and outside Japan descide it is allowed to kill whales it is the same as if corrupt politicians write laws that make it OK to kill the Na´vi and mine unobtanium.

If they can reason it out, then I'd assume they have good reason for it. There are area's that it is allowed to whale in, the issue here is, a boarder dispute on where the whaling grounds end and the sanctuary begins.

Originally Posted by redpaintednavi

Sea Shepherd also do a lot of campaigning, spread information, explaining their cause and winning support for it. Do not forget that it is donations from many people in many countries that finance their activities.

And then they go loose all credibility by attacking the vessels of another country. This is why terrorism becomes such a problem, you get into this "the end justifies the means" mindset. That goes against the teachings of almost every philosophical and religious group.

(oh, you're forgetting they also make money on their TV deal, for profit terrorists, new concept there.)

[Sight Unseen]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

(oh, you're forgetting they also make money on their TV deal, for profit terrorists, new concept there.)

The Sea Shepherds are a nonprofit. Even with the Discovery TV deal, they operate at a loss. No one in Sea Shepherd is in it for money.