Sick Societies

[Mika]

Ok, we already know it, at so many levels, but for me yesterday, experienced another reminder!

So brand new Auntie, naturally excited, stops up at the hospital to go visit her new niece, and of course my brother and sister-in-law! A time of joy and celebration, of family support, of sharing this miracle of life with those closest to you!

At least that's what it should be right?

NO!

Hospital Policies, sighted as in the best interest of Mom and new baby, don't allow anyone but Father and Grandparents to visit, even when the new Mom and Dad indicate otherwise. No apologies after all the non-personal medical staff, obviously have a job to do, and know what is in the best interest for your relatives!

No wonder we are dying as a species, as a whole!

I just ......

society is so ****ed!

[Human No More]

Not everywhere is like that at least, I saw my second youngest sister when she was still there, but that's still really sad... I hope you see her soon.

[Isard]

Yeah, but our infant mortality rate has dropped as well. Take your choice.

[Mika]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Yeah, but our infant mortality rate has dropped as well. Take your choice.

Umm .. and what statistics are you 'reading', if you read in between the lines in medical stats .. umm NO infant mortality and complications for mother and babies HAS NOT decreased, but increased!

Whereas where there has been an increase in the resurgence of traditional MIdwifery and Doula's being used, there is FAR LESS complications than when the 'medical system' intervenes!

[Tsyal Makto]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Yeah, but our infant mortality rate has dropped as well. Take your choice.

Why not have both? Letting a new aunt see her new niece with the [grand]parents doesn't seem like too much to ask for.

This seems like another one of those baseless rules that certain forms of authority enact just to exert that extra little bit of control over people, just because they can.

[Banefull]

Its all about laws and liability. If anything happened they could be held liable.

Laws can be good but I think society is too obsessed with legal process these days. Laws without common sense are worthless.

[Isard]

eh

Google - public data









Yeaaaah... Doctors help.



((EDIT: If they were trying to be bastards, they'd say nobody gets near the baby for a few days.))

(((DOUBLE EDIT: You'll get to see her, its just a precaution. )))

[Sempu]

Hospitals are some of the most pernicious examples of "sky people" thinking around. They don't get the mind-body connection, period. And their arrogance is breathtaking, especially in view of the fact that mistakes made by medical professionals kill 98,000 people a year in the United States; one in ten actions taken by doctors or hospital staff is in error in some way (e.g., misreading medication label, wrong dosage, etc).

The film "The Doctor" should be required viewing in medical school.

[Fkeu'itan]

Ah the good 'ol red tape and crippling paranoia that comes with life these days...

I worry about the way that people are terrified of literally everything these days. There's this thing called an immune system. Apparently, it's been quite popular for a few years now with some people. However did we cope before "Kills 99% of all known germs" multi-surface cleaners and alcohol handwash?

Sorry, I know i'm being overly cynical and sarcastic, but it just seems that it's all gone too far. I grew up in an environment where dirt and mess were a part of life, and i've never come down with a serious illness of any kind. The worst I have ever had to endure is a touch of the common cold now and again, due in no small part no doubt to actually having built up an immunity. Is it any wonder why people who work in offices have the highest level of sick-leave?

[Cynegen]

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

I worry about the way that people are terrified of literally everything these days. There's this thing called an immune system. Apparently, it's been quite popular for a few years now with some people. However did we cope before "Kills 99% of all known germs" multi-surface cleaners and alcohol handwash?

"We are the descendants of millions of generations of creatures who survived bacilli, cocci, spirochetes, viruses, prions, nematodes, flukes and worms. We survived countless infections, infestations, and epidemics. And the more stressed we get about the sources of germs all around us, the more susceptible we are to sickness and disease—because cortisol (our stress hormone) is immunosuppressive, as is losing sleep over something that’s everywhere anyway." -GERMOPHOBIA!

[Mika]

BACKTRACKING!

Ok before I just jumped back into the thread with my opinions, I decided I needed to backtrack on this post.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Not everywhere is like that at least, I saw my second youngest sister when she was still there, but that's still really sad... I hope you see her soon.

Thank you HNM, and I should have acknowledged your support first and mostly before taking off on my tangents. Know that I greatly appreciated this!

Originally Posted by Aihwa

Yeah, but our infant mortality rate has dropped as well. Take your choice.

How I should have initially responded to your comment Aihwa. You are probably not wrong, but over the years many have grown concerned that the Medical Model of Birthing leaves much to be desired in regards to birthing becoming more seen as just another 'disease' or 'condition' that requires Medical Intervention. A lot of well educated and mindful parents and others would prefer to see the continued advancement of awareness's that attempt to restore Birthing back, ie: before the 40's/50's to a more 'natural' state! This includes the restoration of Midwifery and Doula's!

Originally Posted by Banefull

Its all about laws and liability. If anything happened they could be held liable. Laws can be good but I think society is too obsessed with legal process these days. Laws without common sense are worthless.

Good point Baneful, that is probably at the heart of the issue, when 'policy' and 'protectionism' override common sense and or what is best for the whole, not just the institution!

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

Why not have both? Letting a new aunt see her new niece with the [grand]parents doesn't seem like too much to ask for. This seems like another one of those baseless rules that certain forms of authority enact just to exert that extra little bit of control over people, just because they can.

Exactly! Thx Tsyal!

Originally Posted by Aihwa

((EDIT: If they were trying to be bastards, they'd say nobody gets near the baby for a few days.))

Lets hope that it never gets this bad, (edit: actually in the 50's/60's at least IT DID get this bad, so there has been progress made .. but there also seems to be a slipping back unfortunately by all the supposed 'intervention' needed to almost trying to be as bad as it was in the 50's/60's)

Originally Posted by Aihwa

(((DOUBLE EDIT: You'll get to see her, its just a precaution. )))

I know! (and as I am doing this backtracking days after, She is home and Aunti has gotten lots of holding and cuddle time in now!)

Originally Posted by Sempu

Hospitals are some of the most pernicious examples of "sky people" thinking around. They don't get the mind-body connection, period. And their arrogance is breathtaking, especially in view of the fact that mistakes made by medical professionals kill 98,000 people a year in the United States; one in ten actions taken by doctors or hospital staff is in error in some way (e.g., misreading medication label, wrong dosage, etc).The film "The Doctor" should be required viewing in medical school.

Very good comment and analogy Sempu! And yes, let alone the issues just regarding the Medical response to birthing, is the host of other issues as you noted with the whole Medical system regarding everything!

Originally Posted by Fkeu'itan

Ah the good 'ol red tape and crippling paranoia that comes with life these days... I worry about the way that people are terrified of literally everything these days. There's this thing called an immune system. Apparently, it's been quite popular for a few years now with some people. However did we cope before "Kills 99% of all known germs" multi-surface cleaners and alcohol handwash? Sorry, I know i'm being overly cynical and sarcastic, but it just seems that it's all gone too far. I grew up in an environment where dirt and mess were a part of life, and i've never come down with a serious illness of any kind. The worst I have ever had to endure is a touch of the common cold now and again, due in no small part no doubt to actually having built up an immunity. Is it any wonder why people who work in offices have the highest level of sick-leave?

I would totally agree with you Fkeu, it really has become to the point where we are barraged constantly by not just the Medical System, but the Media, to be 'phobic' about even dirt, let alone germs. And its been quite a while where almost a whole generation has been raised to be phobic about it, including to the point as you noted ! Its gotten to the point, I think, where many are not only socially isolating themselves, but also isolating themselves from exposure to the outdoors and nature!

Originally Posted by Helicoradian

As long as the baby is doing ok, I don't see how the hospital could override the choice of the parents. I think that's a bit overreaching of the hospital actually... But think of all the time you'll get to spend with her when she gets released

Exactly! Thx Helicordan

Originally Posted by Human No More

I don't see any 'mind/body connection' (particularly since one is a function of the other) being a part of it... Different places have different policies. Some decided it is appropriate to protect them, others are more allowing.

I would say that everything, as even Avatar indicates, is mind/body/spirit connection! And that it's those places that 'forget' that, which need to be challenged!

Originally Posted by Human No More

Fkeu'itan, you're right, but there's a difference between maintaining a healthy immune system and intentionally taking risks. I grew up similarly and I've only ever been properly unwell once, but then again, there was still a degree of being reasonable and not just allowing everything.

I would say in principle that I agree with you HNM, but the question is 'who' decides and 'why'. Now a days it would seem that just one unfortunate experience causes others to justify strict limitations or creation of policies or laws that becomes imposed upon the whole! My concern is that in those situations, we create a scenario of "throwing the baby out with the bath water" (to quote an old term).

Originally Posted by Human No More

Well, I'll tell you something. Without a hospital I might not have survived. All the others were fine, and without any problems, but professionals do need to be present in case of problems.

Agreed, there are times where we all can be grateful for the improvements in Medical Science and the skill of Medical Professional! And I am glad that such was for your case! (as I have already made my previous post regarding my own gratitude, as well)

Originally Posted by Human No More

Men have a right to be part of things too. They provide the DNA that creates the baby in the first place. They have as much right to help bring lives into the world. They have a right to want to help people and not to be denied or discriminated against, just as women do.

Absolutely! I didn't mean to indicate otherwise!

Originally Posted by Human No More

I disagree... Maybe it isn't 100% balanced, but does it really need to be 100%

Perhaps not, but I still would say that it's gone too far the other direction!

Originally Posted by Human No More

Do you REALLY, genuinely think that a trained doctor would go against a hospital's policy (which DOES vary depending on where) simply because she's female? While I may not agree with the policy in the first place in your case, you can't make a statement like that because you're generalising the entire population by doing so.

Perhaps ... fair enough, there are just as many Female Doctors whom are as biased or 'conditioned' by their training to believe in the present Medical model !

Originally Posted by Human No More

'Feminism' is just disguised sexism. Equality is about being equal, not giving ANYBODY special rights.

I think we both/all would agree that discussion would require its own debate thread!

Originally Posted by Human No More

, but that is no reason at all to exclude men, who may be equally or more capable of doing the job, simply over that.

Ummmm .... and that's not biased?

Originally Posted by Human No More

There's no reason to say it's a job that should be handled by anyone exclusively.

Back to agreed!

[Mika]

MORE BACKTRACKING .. (still in process)

Originally Posted by Human No More

I don't see how you can go from there to a rant against medical care - it's something which I find important because so many people I care about owe their lives. We all have someone like that. Think about that for a while.

Yes we all have reasons to be grateful, but gratitude and IDOLizing the system are two different things. When you have masses of society that have come to be conditioned that 'Death' and 'Dying' are not a normal part of life, the unfortunate result is that we therefore become a society that puts Doctors at the same level as 'Gods' and 'Saviors'. THATS what concerns me, because the Medical System begins to believe this of themselves as well, and to me that is the 'root' of the issues, and the resultant implications of why and how they justify what is 'best' for us! (another whole thread discussion here as well)

Originally Posted by Human No More

Great to hear Hope she's well and that she can go home soon

Back to acknowledging the positive support you offer, and srry for not acknowledging first and mostly! Thx HMN!

Originally Posted by Human No More

Sorry if my tone here sounds a bit strong, but this is something which I care about and I don't see why ANYONE should be able to dictate on it. I really am sorry to hear about this experience, but please don't let it give you a negative opinion of everyone based on it

Its ok, for all of us to be passionate! I think my own comment above, says the same thing, just on the other side of the fence. I agree I don't see why ANYONE should be able to just dictate on it, obviously my feelings are that its the Medical Model that is presently dictating, and I'm advocating that they are unjust in doing so!

Originally Posted by Advent

Well said.

Originally Posted by Devourment

With all due respect, I really haven't heard of this. No doctor I've ever talked to has ever hinted that women are diseased because they are not male, in fact only incredibly ignorant and sexist people could make such a stupid presumption. I highly doubt that some, if any, male doctors actually hold this type of view.

Unfortunately Devourment, there are whole years of research programs and papers that have discussed and shown even proven this! I can't site them of the top, but just because you haven't come across them or the concept yet, doesn't mean it isn't true! My understanding comes from across 30 year adult lifetime on this subject (which is why it is sometimes difficult for me to 'pull' up where the information is, because by now, it has become just a part of my generalized understanding)

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Mika

Ummmm .... and that's not biased?

Sorry if you misunderstood there - I mean that with very few exceptions (such as for privacy or practicality), a job should be done by who is best qualified to. Gender (or age, race, etc.) shouldn't be a factor.

Death IS a part of life and there is no avoiding that, that's a very good reason for taking care of ourselves and others and avoiding it where possible though

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Sorry if you misunderstood there - I mean that with very few exceptions (such as for privacy or practicality), a job should be done by who is best qualified to. Gender (or age, race, etc.) shouldn't be a factor.

Death IS a part of life and there is no avoiding that, that's a very good reason for taking care of ourselves and others and avoiding it where possible though

^^^^^ As long as the job gets done right and efficiently I could care less if it's a man or woman, white, black, asian, mexican...who cares! I'm not prejudice

[Helicoradian]

As long as the baby is doing ok, I don't see how the hospital could override the choice of the parents. I think that's a bit overreaching of the hospital actually...

But think of all the time you'll get to spend with her when she gets released