Multiculturalism is an 'utter failure'

[Spock]

You know, I debate best when people start to piss me off and insult me, if that's what you want then by all means continue, but beware; it's what got PunkMaister banned. Oh the humanity, let's get started.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Robert D. Putman has many critics and he is no wise sage with regards to how society should be, so I do not know why you place such value on his opinion. I and many others think his opinion is worthless.

I put forward Robert D. Putman's views in order to represent my point of view, it has nothing to do with how much criticism he gets or how you view him. His quote merely represented my argument at this point in time.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

My knowledge of the Modern world and of Human History tells me that most people who are against multiculturalism are also against Religion, and are also closet racists. You never find religious/spiritual people who think that multiculturalism is a failure.

Well I suppose we'll have to ask around then, I am technically religious but I have always had my beliefs on that back foot, mainly because I'm so focused on achieving my goals in life. I would be careful about your generalisation regarding racists, the leader of the New Zealand first part here in New Zealand is part native Maori and he is 100% against multiculturalism. As are many people of varying races in New Zealand.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Many people in your little country would disagree with you on every point. It is unclear what you mean my 'multicultural model'. From my understanding the Moaris were perfeclty happy until settlers arrived and tried to force the Moari culture into extinction, however the Moaris were able to fight their way to equality. New Zealand has relatively low crime rates compared to the rest of the world, as well as relatively high standard of living, and high levels of literacy and education, so I do not understand what you mean when you say the 'model' is not working. Ofcourse there are socio-economic variations, but that is the same for every country in the world.

That equality has lasted, New Zealand had a seamless bicultural society for over 100 years, race relations were at their best. Until Helen Clark decided to turn us into a multicultural society, race relations are worsening, crime is on the rise, standards of living are dropping, literacy is also falling. Poor literacy is something I have witnessed firsthand, many of the students coming up into High School (I'm in my last year) are barely able to read or write. Maybe you don't know what it means, but that is a measure of your intelligence, not the facts I present.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

You promote???? As if you have any power; Hiding behind your computer screen, ranting at a world which could not care less about your views.

I'm sharing my opinion. Is there anything wrong with that? And believe me, if I ascend to a position of power then I'll be putting some weight behind this argument.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

It makes National Identity worthless? No. It makes YOUR Idea of national identiy worthlless. Most of your fellow New Zealanders would think you were nuts. As a person who likes watching most sports, I enjoy seeing your Rugby team tearing apart the opposition, and in the line-up of this great team we see white New-Zealanders and Moaris side by side proudly singing the New Zealand anthem. This is how most people around the world, including myself see New-Zealand - a melting pot. Part of the reason your team is any good is because there are Moaris in it.

Yeah, two ethnic groups of people who have gotten along very well for a long time. Alot of people endorse this view, a lot of people don't, it's as simple as that. Believe me, the rugby team analogy was a bad one.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Don't kid yourself. There are Americans and other nationalities who have worked in Europe for years and have never fitted in or been accepted. Just because centuries ago, your parents may have lived in Europe that does not mean you have anything in common with Europeans, or that you would fit in or be accepted. Just speak to Americans and Brits working in countries like Germany, France and Italy. And the irony in all this, is that the people most reluctant to fully embrace you for who you are will be those who have the exact same mentality as you.

Well, lets see, my father was born in England for one and I have lived in England for a time. I think I would do just fine. Not to mention 95% of my family lives in England too. It would be wise to be close to family wouldn't you think. I'm not sure what you're point is?

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Face it my friend, the only people who are with you and have the same concerns, will be generally the non-Religious and worldly types, like yourself.

Absolute preposterous comment with no evidence or weight whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

The arguments you are trying to put forward remind me of the arguments people use to try and put an end to Religion. Your ideas are every bit as Hair-Brained as the Anti-Religion people.

Except these are realist arguments.

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Religion is not going anywhere and neither is Multiculturalism. To try and stop either of these two things is like trying to hold back an incoming tide using a bucket.

Oh, this is where you are right for once. It's a sad world isn't it? The cultural tension is going to send humanity back to the stone age, I love humanity and I can't let that happen. What's sad is that people like you won't realise it until the very last minute.

You are a poor debater in the finest sense of the word. It was a pleasure, I hope we can continue this.

Edit: You're also a **** speller. Work on it. I gave the same advice to PunkMaister on a regular basis.

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Robert D. Putman has many critics and he is no wise sage with regards to how society should be, so I do not know why you place such value on his opinion. I and many others think his opinion is worthless.



My knowledge of the Modern world and of Human History tells me that most people who are against multiculturalism are also against Religion, and are also closet racists. You never find religious/spiritual people who think that multiculturalism is a failure.



Many people in your little country would disagree with you on every point. It is unclear what you mean my 'multicultural model'. From my understanding the Moaris were perfeclty happy until settlers arrived and tried to force the Moari culture into extinction, however the Moaris were able to fight their way to equality. New Zealand has relatively low crime rates compared to the rest of the world, as well as relatively high standard of living, and high levels of literacy and education, so I do not understand what you mean when you say the 'model' is not working. Ofcourse there are socio-economic variations, but that is the same for every country in the world.



You promote???? As if you have any power; Hiding behind your computer screen, ranting at a world which could not care less about your views.



It makes National Identity worthless? No. It makes YOUR Idea of national identiy worthlless. Most of your fellow New Zealanders would think you were nuts. As a person who likes watching most sports, I enjoy seeing your Rugby team tearing apart the opposition, and in the line-up of this great team we see white New-Zealanders and Moaris side by side proudly singing the New Zealand anthem. This is how most people around the world, including myself see New-Zealand - a melting pot. Part of the reason your team is any good is because there are Moaris in it.



Don't kid yourself. There are Americans and other nationalities who have worked in Europe for years and have never fitted in or been accepted. Just because centuries ago, your parents may have lived in Europe that does not mean you have anything in common with Europeans, or that you would fit in or be accepted. Just speak to Americans and Brits working in countries like Germany, France and Italy. And the irony in all this, is that the people most reluctant to fully embrace you for who you are will be those who have the exact same mentality as you.



Face it my friend, the only people who are with you and have the same concerns, will be generally the non-Religious and worldly types, like yourself.

The arguments you are trying to put forward remind me of the arguments people use to try and put an end to Religion. Your ideas are every bit as Hair-Brained as the Anti-Religion people.

Religion is not going anywhere and neither is Multiculturalism. To try and stop either of these two things is like trying to hold back an incoming tide using a bucket.

...................I don't even know how to respond to that....This post was both uneccessary and not surprising that you presented it in a very rude manner....Must you try and cause so much drama and tension all the time Tiberius? I have tried over and over to see your point of view but its hard when you are obviously filled with so much blinded hate. I cannot expect someone so closed minded to agree with anyone that doesn't agree with you.

Btw Tiberius don't put words into peoples mouth it will only piss us off because I do give a **** about his views.
I agree 100% with Illusive and Tsyal Makto on this one.

[Isard]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

Religion is not going anywhere and neither is Multiculturalism. To try and stop either of these two things is like trying to hold back an incoming tide using a bucket.

The tide of BS the religious right spews or the tide of people telling the church to suck it?

I'm confused.




As for the topic... Who the **** cares? If you want to celebrate your heritage, do it. If you want to stay away from different people, DO IT. This is not difficult. You cannot force people to abandon their own culture, and you cannot force others to celebrate the same culture. Why does everybody feel this stuff has to be dealt with in absolutes?

(Oh, and Tiberius? Get off your high horse, according to "your knowledge of the modern world" DA JOOS are currently running the world.)


((And stop playing the victim with religion, its ****ing stupid. As a Christian, I am ashamed at how others who call themselves the same act when responding, instead of a nice, clean answer, we get the whole spiel how "religion haters" are trying to destroy you. WWJD? Jesus would HTFU and take criticism in stride, or ignore it. Be like Jesus dammit.))

[ZenitYerkes]

Originally Posted by Aihwa

As for the topic... Who the **** cares? If you want to celebrate your heritage, do it. If you want to stay away from different people, DO IT. This is not difficult. You cannot force people to abandon their own culture, and you cannot force others to celebrate the same culture. Why does everybody feel this stuff has to be dealt with in absolutes?

I can't agree more.

We're used to speaking of people as if they were masses that had to follow the same behavior. People are persons.

Let them do with their identities what they desire; on their own.

[ZenitYerkes]

^A needlessly insulting reply.

[Advent]

Would'nt want to argue with you, Illusive Man.

[Banefull]

This thread.

has gone horribly wrong.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Banefull

This thread.

has gone horribly wrong.

That all depends on Tiberius' dexterity.

[Advent]

I personally think, the only way we'll ever get anywhere is complete, worldwide unification.

Therefore, those who have sought to 'dominate the world' could've been the greatest successes for Humanity.

[Pa'li Makto]

I do think that some sort of cultural dialogue should be encouraged so each culture can experiance the other, otherwise the alternative are something akin to xenophobic countries. However I do think that each country shoud have the basic right to preserve their own culture, unfortunately how we do this in practise unless we remove immigration or promote enclaves within cities is beyond me at the moment.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto

I do think that some sort of cultural dialogue should be encouraged so each culture can experiance the other, otherwise the alternative are something akin to xenophobic countries. However I do think that each country shoud have the basic right to preserve their own culture, unfortunately how we do this in practise unless we remove immigration or promote enclaves within cities is beyond me at the moment.

May we live in interesting times.

[SaphirJD]

same problem in german speaking countries... governments are helpless and clueless.

when people feel they are losing their identity its natural they will strike sooner or later somehow back at the "enemy".

but it will be always an unresolved problem - when people move to another country with perhaps another lifestyle, sooner or laer it will always ending somehow troublesome.

for this there seems no real or easy solution. only 100% sure thing is like said previously when countries work together in thinks but stay otherwise alone, but this is also not really easy to manage, more impossible.

[SaphirJD]

religion... multiculturalism... why things have to be always complicated.

people shold learn when inventing things to make them more clear, simple and without the danger of let them go wrong.

[Elyannia]

Originally Posted by SaphirJD

religion... multiculturalism... why things have to be always complicated.

people shold learn when inventing things to make them more clear, simple and without the danger of let them go wrong.

No people just need to learn to stop thinking that they are being threatened or attacked over something so silly.
Keeping a clear open mind helps too.

[SaphirJD]

ok... a clear mind and the knowledge that being attacked is mostly wrong helps - but anyway it would also help so make things simple, really.. the amount of rules partly is just scary

This world needs just more people with a simple mindset.. just my opinion