Situation in Libya

[Isard]

Some positive news. Locals are happy to have friendly skies.


US jet crashes in Libya: airman would not have known whether he faced friend or foe - Telegraph

[Pa'li Makto]

Exactly, somehow for the first time in ages this feels like we are actually helping people over there.
Now the big questions are: Are they here mainly to hunt for Gadaffi or to protect civillians. Obama said they will hunt Gadaffi but I think they should let a Libyan do it, it's their movement after all.
Second: After the air attacks then what? Will they move troops in or will they hand the power back to the Libyan people?

[applejuice]

Democracy is the worst option for a country that is coming out of a dictatorship or a revolution. Why? People and Revolution leaders tend to have a short term memory, the first will forget why they supported the rebels and the rebels will forget why they were fighting for and, usually, will take the same path the dictator/government they were fighting for took. Or even worse, the situation will be much disastrous under the new management. Can tell you that because my country lived a similar situation and now we are ruined, but the "revolutionaries" say everything is fine, no problems around. People will vote for the first guy that will promise them heaven and earth and that will lead them to another oppressive regime and the vicious circle will go on and on.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Democracy is the worst option for a country that is coming out of a dictatorship or a revolution. Why? People and Revolution leaders tend to have a short term memory, the first will forget why they supported the rebels and the rebels will forget why they were fighting for and, usually, will take the same path the dictator/government they were fighting for took. Or even worse, the situation will be much disastrous under the new management. Can tell you that because my country lived a similar situation and now we are ruined, but the "revolutionaries" say everything is fine, no problems around. People will vote for the first guy that will promise them heaven and earth and that will lead them to another oppressive regime and the vicious circle will go on and on.

So what do you suggest that people do that is neither democracy, nor dictatorship?

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

So what do you suggest that people do that is neither democracy, nor dictatorship?

A transition period under heavy supervision of the external forces, in this case, the coalition. We have heard about rebels, but exactly, what kind of rebels? Are they going to implant the always overseen UN regulations or are they some sort of Taliban? This is a risky thing, if the UN is going to force Gaddafi out, then the UN must assure that no extremist-religious person will be able to climb through the new government. Islam and Human Rights are not compatible. And the only way of doing that is, a large scale intervention. If done properly, we won't have to regret a new Iraq.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by applejuice

Islam and Human Rights are not compatible.

...what? It's really, really, really not, and that's an INCREDIBLY close-minded thing to say. I could actually say the exact same thing about Christianity. The issue isn't the religion itself, it's what the men in charge have warped the underlying messages to mean, and how they implement them.

And also? the USA seemed to form a democracy after THEIR little rebellion. It does happen. Not to mention that the kind of hands on "intervention" you are talking about...well, it looks to me like an external force is coming in and taking over, and not letting the country decide for itself where it wants to go. It's their war, their fight - what is wrong with giving them the aid they ask, and then standing back to let them make their OWN choices regarding THEIR country and THEIR future?

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

...what? It's really, really, really not, and that's an INCREDIBLY close-minded thing to say. I could actually say the exact same thing about Christianity. The issue isn't the religion itself, it's what the men in charge have warped the underlying messages to mean, and how they implement them.

My bad, I should have written Radical Islam. And, unfortunately for Arab coutries, the risk of some fundamentalist taking the government is not negligible, it's something quite real.

And also? the USA seemed to form a democracy after THEIR little rebellion. It does happen. Not to mention that the kind of hands on "intervention" you are talking about...well, it looks to me like an external force is coming in and taking over, and not letting the country decide for itself where it wants to go. It's their war, their fight - what is wrong with giving them the aid they ask, and then standing back to let them make their OWN choices regarding THEIR country and THEIR future?

How much time it took to the rebels of North America to settle their revolution? Decades. If we were to let Libya rebels to decide for themselves, then this whole intervention should stop right now. The point is, now, that the Coalition is still trying to decide what to do. Are there any signs that the rebels will act according to what we all are expecting? Or are they just a newer version of Afghanistan?
Have you ever read Muhammed? What he says about women and other stuff definitely is not compatible with what we know as Human Rights.

[Pa'li Makto]

New News!! Plus it's always updated.

Libya Live Blog - March 23 | Al Jazeera Blogs

[Human No More]

Democracy is the only way. A non-democratic state set up after the overthrow of a previous one is just as bad as the previous and effectively nullifies the entire point of the revolution.

On the entire thing and especially about christianity or whatever, I think, even though it is a cliche: YouTube - Imagine - John Lennon

[Pa'li Makto]

The most recent news out of Libya:

1:14am

The top Republican in the US Congress has sharpened his criticism of President Barack Obama's handling of military operations in Libya, pressing him over the mission's cost, leadership and exit strategy.

House of Representatives Speaker John Boehner asked Obama in a letter how he would measure success in Libya and whether Muammar Gaddafi had to depart before the US military involvement ends.

12:33am

Libyan state TV reports that Western military powers have attacked civilian and military targets in Jafar, southwest of the capital Tripoli.

"Military and civilian targets were attacked by colonialist crusaders," the television said, quoting a Libyan military source.

12:09am

Libyan state news agency JANA says coalition raids on a residential neighbourhood east of the capital have killed "a large number" of civilians.
12:03am

Al Jazeera's Anita McNaught says there has been a series of "very big explosions" in the last hour. She says blasts were heard in "all sorts of directions" but in particular from the vicinity of Gaddafi's compound. There were also reports of a strike on a military base in the district of Tajoura, she said.

[Spock]

The 'liberalisation' of Islam will make the future a brighter place. Think Turkey. The Turkey model is what all off Islam should work towards, much as the liberalisation of Christianity has taken place in the last few centuries.

By the way I want to point out I have read the Koran (more than I can say for many Muslims) and have one right next to me, so if anyone has any questions just ask.

Trust me, it has been misenterpreted like no other book I've ever read. It's difficult to read but it does explicitly state that men and woman are 'equal' in the truest meaning of the statement. It also states that one gender should 'never' place requirements on the other.

Speaking of Muhammed though, don't get too comfy with him. He was no angel by today's standards. Think of him as merely Allah's representative on earth, spreading the word of Allah.

P.S Even thought the Bible and the Koran share many similarities, ect they both speak of the Garden of Eden. They are two different book ultimately and also share differences. To overlook these would be reckless.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Spock

The 'liberalisation' of Islam will make the future a brighter place. Think Turkey. The Turkey model is what all off Islam should work towards, much as the liberalisation of Christianity has taken place in the last few centuries.

By the way I want to point out I have read the Koran (more than I can say for many Muslims) and have one right next to me, so if anyone has any questions just ask.

Trust me, it has been misenterpreted like no other book I've ever read. It's difficult to read but it does explicitly state that men and woman are 'equal' in the truest meaning of the statement. It also states that one gender should 'never' place requirements on the other.

Speaking of Muhammed though, don't get too comfy with him. He was no angel by today's standards. Think of him as merely Allah's representative on earth, spreading the word of Allah.

P.S Even thought the Bible and the Koran share many similarities, ect they both speak of the Garden of Eden. They are two different book ultimately and also share differences. To overlook these would be reckless.

Yes, I know all that. And honestly, the best explanation I've read as to Islam's current state is that it's a combination of a reaction against well over a hundred years of colonization and Western rule/interference and it's own form of Reformation.

Incidentally, there ARE Muslim states who are quietly working towards being better, more equal places. Funny how their efforts never get to be mentioned.

And yes, I'm aware by OUR standards, Muhammed wasn't that great. But for his time? That's different.

[Pa'li Makto]

Look at Cain and Abel for instance..Really for their time: The old testament is shared by both Christianity and Islam, the figures were quite normal within their historical context.

[Human No More]

BOTH have some extremely dangerous underlying messages going as far as to directly advocate genocide in places. I couldn't say if one is worse than the other or not as it depends on interpretation - different groups will have different interpretations, but the basic message is still the same in each, the more tolerant and progressive elements of both just ignore the particularly dangerous elements, while more extreme elements concentrate on and emphasise them.

[Pa'li Makto]

If anyone wants to be kept up to date with news on Libya join this:
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002103015378
It's a page set up by Libyan protestors who are against Gadaffi's regime.