For anyone even remotely interested finding out more about Islam.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Considering the fact that over 2/3 of it is not about its own followers but about other people, that is hard to believe. Certainly, books like the bible contain their fair share of parts calling for unacceptable acts and any such book is extremely detrimental to society, but even other similar books do not universally condemn everyone who does not follow it or calling for executions of non-followers and describing people such as homosexuals as 'worse than animals'. Certainly, it's even harder see the 'peaceful' lie with the existence of continual terrorist attacks.

Yes. Because no Christian or Christian organization has ever gone out and killed people based on faith. Actually, from memory, the Bible is pretty explicit with killing non-believers (and raping the women, and enslaving the children) - and certainly Christianity has a longer history than Islam on justifying killing on faith (not that it's always the sole motivation, but then again, the current extremist terrorism attacks have other motivations than faith, too, particularly when you look at it region by region).

I believe, though, that Pali put up this thread so that those who are interested might have a resource to looking at another take on Islam instead of the same old, tired old arguments (and to admit biases - I say this as an atheist who strongly dislikes organized religion), not for people to drag up all the darkness to the religion. Everyone knows them, the Western media is very, VERY good at getting that across. It also fails at presenting a balanced view, which I thought Pali was trying to even a bit.

[Pa'li Makto]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

I believe, though, that Pali put up this thread so that those who are interested might have a resource to looking at another take on Islam instead of the same old, tired old arguments (and to admit biases - I say this as an atheist who strongly dislikes organized religion), not for people to drag up all the darkness to the religion. Everyone knows them, the Western media is very, VERY good at getting that across. It also fails at presenting a balanced view, which I thought Pali was trying to even a bit.

Exactly.
Cheers Ashen Key.
Human No More, you might think it's a recruitment site and sure there are links to help those who would want to convert but are they actually asking for people to convert??
Besides, if you think that the site that I put up has biases, even though their valid points are backed up by direct passages in the Qur'an and you yourself are linking to a site put up by an ex muslim that clearly would have an agenda of their own, then you are pretty selective in your vision.

[ISV Venture Star]

I think that Islam seems a lot more consistent than Christianity, generally speaking. But that's probably because the primary text is the work of one individual (who seems to have done some clever retconning) rather than an assemblage of texts mashed together like the Bible.

[Human No More]

Both contain much of the same type of material, certainly - but the quantity and severity is much higher in this case. The consistency of both books, both internally and historically, is low.

A site that is clearly aimed at recruiting people is not going to give valid and balanced information. Linking what is clearly a recruiting site to a group of people with no interest is pointless - yet it is attempted, while if someone went around giving people who believed it links to http://www.ex-muslim.org.uk/, they would probably be outraged - as I linked before, they believe that people who leave should be executed.

[Theorist]

I think it's a little bit harsh to say the bible and quaran are detrimental to society. The bible actually says that humans are the same as animals. And, I have never seen the passage where it says homosexuals are worse than animals, but if you tell me which passage, I will look for it. But, I do know that the bible says homosexuality is a sin. But it also says that love is the greatest of all things, so it could be interpreted that the love between two men overcomes the homosexuality part, making it acceptable. (although lustful homosexuality would still be a sin, but the bible also says any lust regardless if it's heterosexual or not is a sin). I also know that the bible says to love the sinners, so I don't think its the book itself causing the problems. I think it's people using the books as a copout so they can have a religion backing them, when really they aren't following the book.

I'm also not sure where the Bible says to kill non believers. I have seen it say to be wary around them, and to stay strong in your beliefs around non-believers, and it says there is a time for war, but it also says there is a time for peace. And, it says to put the non-believers above yourself, so people who don't do that really aren't following the book, so it's not the book to blame here, but the people.

The only time I've seen the bible justify killing was when a man raped a women inside a holy temple, on the sabbath. It said the killing of that man was justified.

Also, you can't just overlook the good the bible and quran have done for people. I mean if you look at the hospitals funded by religious groups, and the solace these books can give people. You just never here about the time jimmy was gonna beat the crap out of timmy, but decided not to, because it was against his respective faith.

I mean whether or not any faith is right or wrong, you can't deny that they definitely help a lot of troubled people, and they do do good things, such as charities and hospitals for society.

I'm sorry for going off, but I think it's a little offensive to say the religious texts of someone are a danger to society.

[Empty Glass]

Originally Posted by Theorist

Also, you can't just overlook the good the bible and quran have done for people. I mean if you look at the hospitals funded by religious groups, and the solace these books can give people. You just never here about the time jimmy was gonna beat the crap out of timmy, but decided not to, because it was against his respective faith.

I mean whether or not any faith is right or wrong, you can't deny that they definitely help a lot of troubled people, and they do do good things, such as charities and hospitals for society.

I'm sorry for going off, but I think it's a little offensive to say the religious texts of someone are a danger to society.

Agreed. Religion need not necessarily be solely a bad thing.

On a personal note, I've never been a Muslim, yet my Muslim girlfriend from a few years back never gave me any trouble about it when we dated.

[Human No More]

Yes, I linked that site to contrast your example, which does come off as recruiting, because if I tried to 'de-recruit' any, they would get all offended, yet they don't see any problem with trying to recruit people. If you think that they would be accepting of the same, go to Saudi Arabia and try to convince people out of it - you will be executed (well, you wouldn't even have been allowed outside on your own in the first place). If you read some of the stories on the site I linked, there are many ones of abuse and oppression that they had to escape, and many people can not even use their real names out of fear for their lives or their families.

My points are also valid and are backed up by far more passages - as I said, over 66% of the quran is about people who do not follow it rather than those who do, including prescribing the death penalty for any number of things from homosexuality to criticism. The contents are completely incompatible with modern society.

[Banefull]

Most relgious debates/discussions consist of one side trying to straw man the other by arguing against a watered down form of a religion (or in some cases lack-of).

I am quite familiar with Islam myself as it was major part of my world cultural studies quite a few years ago. The university I go to is considered to be one of the most diverse campuses out there also. I know several people who are practitioners of Islam. From what I've seen personally, there is no single mold. The vast majority of Islamic believers do not live in the Middle East. Take an Islamic person from Saudi Arabia, Indonesia (the most populous Islamic country), the Xinjang region of China, place them side by side, and you will be absolutely how shocked at the sheer number of differences. In regards to the percieved negative aspects of Islam, remember that many of those are actually cultural things and not religious. There are for example many countries with an Islamic majority outside the Middle East that have good rights and opportunities for women for example.

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A bit off to the side, I would like to address the topic of homosexuality in regards to religion not to start a debate or anything but to give my perspective of it. Somehow this notion has arisen that religous individuals have a tendency to hate homosexual people as a result of their religions. In my own faith, homosexual behavior is condemned. Not homosexual inviduals. Within the Catholic Church, homosexuals are simply called to live lives of chastity.

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection" (CCC 2357 – 2359).

Violence and even discrimination against homosexuals is not condoned within the Church itself. According to the Catcheism of the Catholic Church:

"Men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies . . . must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided" (CCC 2358).

I will say though, unforunately many people in my own faith are not fully aware of what the Church actually teaches and assume that they should hate homosexuals which is not the case. There are many practicing homosexuals within my own faith and there are even support groups within the Church to help such individuals in coping with outside violence.


I must also point out that the causes of homosexuality are not yet determined, far from it as the causes are still very poorly understood. No "gay-gene" has ever been found but likewise, no study has ever definitively proven the the oppsosite either (in fact, I've found that research on the topic of homosexuality is very scant overall). But if homosexuality was genetic, however, why is it then that monozygotic twins who share the exact same DNA, do not necessarily have the same sexual orientation? (note the word "orientation" which is different from just choosing to engage in such acts) I am not implying that people themselves are not to blame for their homosexual state (no one just wakes up one day and decides, "I want to be homosexual or heterosexual") but that its not completely determined by birth.

[Pa'li Makto]

Originally Posted by Banefull

Most relgious debates/discussions consist of one side trying to straw man the other by arguing against a watered down form of a religion (or in some cases lack-of).

I am quite familiar with Islam myself as it was major part of my world cultural studies quite a few years ago. The university I go to is considered to be one of the most diverse campuses out there also. I know several people who are practitioners of Islam. From what I've seen personally, there is no single mold. The vast majority of Islamic believers do not live in the Middle East. Take an Islamic person from Saudi Arabia, Indonesia (the most populous Islamic country), the Xinjang region of China, place them side by side, and you will be absolutely how shocked at the sheer number of differences. In regards to the percieved negative aspects of Islam, remember that many of those are actually cultural things and not religious. There are for example many countries with an Islamic majority outside the Middle East that have good rights and opportunities for women for example.

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This is quoted for truth.
Human No More, you said yourself that lots of the issues you mentioned were from ex muslims who were probably in their country of origin.
The Middle East, after the destruction of the khalifah around the 1920s by the western forces became divided along tribal and ethnic lines. Consider the Kalifah to be almost like the pope or vatican with its existence solely to be a representative body of allah for all muslims throughout the world, with no one group to be better than the rest.

The Caliphate is a political system from the ideology of Islam that enshrines: the rule of law, representative government, accountability by the people through an independent judiciary and the principle of representative consultation. It is government built upon a concept of citizenship regardless of ethnicity, gender or creed and is totally opposed to the oppression of any religious or ethnic grouping.
The highest executive post is the post of khalifah who appoints ministers without portfolio to assist in ruling, and governors for the various regions. The legislative sources are the Quran and sayings of the prophet Muhammad. While differences of interpretation of these sources can occur, as with any legislative sources, the particular interpretation adopted by the Khalifah must be justified before an independent judiciary, which has the power to remove him from his post should he flagrantly deviate from the boundaries of credible legal interpretation ( ijtihad). The khalifah is appointed by the people, and hereditary rule by supposed divine right is forbidden. Consultation is one of the pillars of ruling and is best served by the establishment of representative councils composed of men and women from all religions and ethnic groupings within the state.

While this system differs from western liberal democracy in a number of ways, there are some surface similarities. It must, however, be realised that though Muslims in Iraq sometimes use the term democracy it is the Islamic concept of the rule of law, the right of the people to appoint their own leader and open accountable government that they aspire to. This has hitherto been denied them by the western backed quisling regimes that hitherto have taken away all their political rights and whipped their backs. Egypt, for example, has just gone through elections to its consultative upper house of parliament with 80% of the seats going to the ruling party. The darker side of Egypt's façade of democracy is commented upon by Mona Makram-Ebeid, a prominent Egyptian politician and human-rights activist “They [the government] always manage to get a hold of Islamist leaders and put them in jail, then release them when the elections are over”. Egypt's president Mubarak has won a majority in each of the three elections held since his appointment twenty three years ago – what helped him was that nobody dared to stand against him.

The Middle East's experience of democracy to date is of a deceptive formality of elections, which serve only to rubber stamp dictatorial rule. Failure to realise this will lead to frustration, later, when the Muslims of Iraq appear ungrateful to the west for removing Saddam Hussain and offering in his place western style liberal secular democracy.

(If anyone would like a link to this article, let me know)

With the middle east divided among tribal lines, the local laws and attitudes are subject to the ruling class of the population at the time. Sharia law is probably the only real common law between all muslim states but it is still flawed and not dealing with the teachings of the Qu'ran. Over in western countries, many muslims only resort to using sharia law to divorce or settle financial matters and many baulk at the idea of whipping others for drinking for example.http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/07...-for-drinking/

The attack was allegedly by fundamental Wahabi Mulsims. "This criminal act has no place in Islam. As Australian Muslims we are require to follow Australian law, not to take the law into our own individual hands," Ahmed Kilami, a member of the Muslim Village told the network.

As for homosexuality, I have to ask Human No More this: Why are there homosexual men in Iran dating back from the 1800s, despite Iran being the most non secular middle eastern country with tough penalties on homosexuals, including hangings.
http://direland.typepad.com/direland...at-a-sept.html

As late as the last half of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th, "Iranian society remained accepting of many male and female homoerotic practices... Consensual and semi-open pederastic relations between adult men and amrads were common within various sectors of society." What Afary terms a "romantic bisexuality" born in the classical period remained prevalent at court and among elite men and women, and "a form of serial love ('eshq-e mosalsal) was commonly practiced [in which] their love could shift back and forth from girl to boy and back to girl."

In Australia, we have had quite a few muslims turning up for equal marriage, equal rights rallies.

[Human No More]

Homosexuality is not a choice. Saying 'why are there gay people in Iran?' proves my own point, especially when they face the death penalty.

Saying they have 'citizenship regardless of ethnicity' doesn't mean everyone is equal, and indeed, is not practised - these are countries where a woman is considered worth half as much as a man or less, and her testimony in court is only worth a quarter as much. They follow a book which calls for a poll tax on non-followers where it does not outright state that they should be executed.
While people may well say 'we follow the country's laws', that doesn't mean they actually act on that, and indeed, often seek to change the laws for their own benefit at the expense of everyone else.

Every single point I have made has been substantiated from their own book.

[Pa'li Makto]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Every single point I have made has been substantiated from their own book.

I'm sorry but half of what you have said seems to be your personal opinion..
I have used statements from Islamic sites where the information is directly backed up by passages in the Qur'an and NOT the sunna and hadiths which are not the Qur'an but merely interpretations that have been used by others. The Qur'an is actually the word of God and it is complete

1) The Quran is a complete book, See 6:19,38,114, 115, 12:111 and 50:45.


"..........We did not leave ANYTHING out of this book." 6:38

[3:195 ]"Their Lord responded to them: "I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you MALE OR FEMALE, YOU ARE EQUAL TO ONE ANOTHER........."

That is in the Qur'an.
Plus here's a counter to what you have said about women being worth half as much as a man. (Women in Islam-Marriage, Divorce, Childbirth, abortion,rights, politics-Marriage, Divorce, Childbirth, abortion,rights, politics-Best resource for Women issues in Islam (Submission ) on the Internet. Women in Islam-Submission-Muhammed-Allah-Qur'an-Ko)

There are widespread erroneous misconception about the status of women in Islam (Submission.) This misconception was augmented by some newsmedia that made little effort to correct their understanding before broadcasting their views on this matter. Adding to this misconception are the regrettable practices in most so called "Islamic" countries or societies where myths, traditions and innovations have won over the true Islamic (Quranic) teachings and where women are traditionally subdued and oppressed. In this presentation we will try to clarify the position of the true Islam (Submission) on the status of women. We will list the misconceptions then comment on every issue accordingly.

(1)Muslim women have to wear the veil: This is a very common misconception, as Quran does not command the veil (Hijab). Wearing the veil is a tradition and is only supported by the man-made books of Hadiths and Sunna. These books do not represent the words of God in the Quran and on many occasions contradict them. Please see: Women Dress code in Islam.

(2) Islam encourages wife beating: On the contrary, Quran uses the best psychological approach to discourage this widespread abuse that is widespread in both Islamic and non-Islamic societies. Please see: Domestic violence, Wife abuse and beating, a Quranic Perspective.

(3) The woman inherits only half what a man can inherit: This is a common misconception even among the traditional Muslims themselves. Quran gives the parents total freedom to give their children as much as they see fit even if this means giving the females double what the males would get. Quran, however, commands that if a will is NOT left, then the estate is distributed in such a manner that the son gets double what the daughter gets. Generally, the son is responsible for a family, while the daughter is taken care of by a husband or her family. However, the Quran recommends in 2:180 that a will shall be left to conform with the specific circumstances of the deceased. For example, if the son is rich and the daughter is poor, one may leave a will giving the daughter everything, or twice as much as the son.

(4)The woman's testimony. is equal only to half of the man's testimony: This is a gross mis-representation. The woman testimony is equal to the man's testimony except in one case only, the financial transactions. This is according to 2:282;

[ 2:282] O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. ........ Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so. ......

Financial transactions are the ONLY situations where two women may substitute for one man as witness. This is to guard against the real possibility that one witness may marry the other witness, and thus cause her to be biased. It is a recognized fact that women are more emotionally vulnerable than men. If the woman as a witness was worth half that of a man, the verse would have stated so clearly. But obviously that is not the case. Women's testimony in all other matters are equal to that of a man or even supersedes his testimony as in the case of a wife testifying against her accusation of adultery, 24:6-10. See also, 65:2, 5:106 and 4:6

(5)Muslim woman cannot have jobs outside their homes: This also is not true. The social structure in the East where Islam (Submission) prevails encourages the woman to make her house her first priority but there is no prohibition whatsoever on women having to work and earn their living. The Muslim (submitter) woman has been given the privilege to earn money, the right to own property, to enter into legal contracts and to manage all of her assets in any way she pleases. She can hold a job or run her own business and no one has any claim on her earnings including her husband. Historically, Muhammed's first wife was a merchant who hired Muhammed to work for her. Muslim women went along with their husbands, fathers and brothers during battles to take care of the wounded and help in the back lines of the troops..

(6)Polygamy is strongly recommended: This is one of the most common misconceptions about Islam (Submission.) Quran strongly discourages polygamy. Polygamy was a way of life until the Quran was revealed 1400 years ago. It was advocated and practiced by the followers of the previous scriptures. Quran came to put the first scriptural limit on polygamy and discourages it as much as possible. Please see; Polygamy, the right way In all the scriptures, the men were allowed to have more than one wife and not vise verse, since the idea of polygamy then was to populate the earth. As we know a woman can be pregnant only once a year even if she is married to four men but one man can have four children in the process at the same time if he is married to four wives. Polygamy was never meant to be abused for sexual pleasure or prove superiority. The emotional make up of a man makes him acceptable to polygamy and the opposite is true for women who prefer a monogamous relationship.

(7)Men status is higher than that of the women : Again this is not true. Many writers who wrote about women's rights refer to the statement in 4:34 as a sign of the man is above the women in status but it is a misunderstood statement. In 4:34, the expression "..al-rijalu qawwdmuna 'ala al-nisa'i.... " means "The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners." This expression simply means that God is appointing the husband as "captain of the ship." Marriage is like a ship, and the captain runs it after due consultation with his officers. It does not assign inequality but rather assigns duties to avoid conflicts and disputes.

Quran provides every possible proof that women and men are equal in th sight of God and treats both genders in the same way and rewards them in the same way. Please see; Are women and men equal in Islam? , Women in the religion of Submission (Islam) and Blame it on Eve. !.

(8) Muslim Women cannot have education: This is not true. Qur'an encourages the pursuit of knowledge by all Muslims (Submitters) regardless of their sex. It repeatedly commands all believers to read, to recite, to think, to contemplate, as well as to learn from the signs of God surrounding us in nature. In fact, the very first revelation to Prophet Muhammad was "READ" and the second revelation talked about God who teaches the people by the "PEN". In either case no gender is advocated, the order is for everyone. Islam (Submission) does not put any limit on the kind or field of education a woman may choose. Islamic history still has the mark of few women scholars

(9)Women cannot share in the political life in their communities: This also is not true. Women in Islam (Submission) have the right to vote, express their views on any public matter, run for an office and even be the head of a state.See 60:12, 27:22-44 Please see; Women and Politics in Islam and The record set straight: Women in Islam have rights.

(10)Women cannot pray, fast, do Hajj or Ummrah during menstruation: This misconception is even common among women who follow the traditional Islam that derives many of its laws from man-made books. This is totally against the teachings of the Quran. Please see; Religious Duties and Menstruation . A question/ answer report.

(11)Women are stoned to death for Adultery : This is totally false as there is NO death penalty for adultery in Islam (Submission). The penalty of adultery is equal for both men and women, and involves symbolic lashing. Social pressure, i.e., public witnessing of the penalty, is the basic punishment see 24:1-2

(12)Muslim women cannot marry Jewish or Christian men: This common misconception is advocated and promoted by men but have no basis in the Quran. Quran gives both men and women the right to marry from the people of the book, i.e. Muslims (Submitters), Jews or Christians. God also reminds us that the marriage to a believer is much better than the marriage to an idolworshiper. See 5:5 and 2:221. See also; Marriage in the Quran, and A Marriage question and answer from the Quran.

(13)Muslim women do not have the right to divorce their husbands: This is not true. Divorce laws in the Quran apply to both men and women equally. Women have the right to divorce their husbands as long as they follow the laws set in the Quran. Please see; Divorce according to the Quran.

[Pa'li Makto]

Continued.

(14)Compensation for the murder of a woman is half the going rate for men: This is totally false as both men and women are equally treated and compensated according to the Quran. Such laws are found in the fabricated books of Hadiths and Sunna and they are not the laws of God in the Quran.See 2:178.

(15)For a woman to prove rape, four adult males of "impeccable" character must witness the incident: This a gross misunderstanding of this law. Like any civil law in the civilized world, Quran urges a proof beyond doubt for such a horrendous crime. Quran accepts a proof of a crime if the proof is beyond doubt, e.g. see 12:75. Therefore although the verses of adultery which is used in cases of rape are applied, a proof beyond doubt, e.g. DNA of the offender should be an acceptable proof instead of four witnesses in these cases. Insisting on four witnesses when the other proof is beyond doubt is NOT Quranic.

(16)The legal age for girls to marry tends to be very young: This is not an Islamic law but local tribal or cultural tradition. In reality Islam (Submission) expects marriage to be established on mutual understanding, acceptance and approval. Such requirements cannot be achieved in the very young girls (or boys). Maturity, mentally, emotionally and physically is the rule in Islam (Submission) before marriage. The story of prophet Muhammed marrying his wife Aysha when she was only six is a gross lie that can be found in the Hadiths books that are full of many other similar lies that do not represent Islam (Submission.) Please see; Prophet Muhammed's marriage to Aysha.

(17)Female circumcision, also called female genital mutilation: Quran does not mention nor advocates female circumcision and all the rituals that go with it. This is NOT an Islamic practice by all means. This practice predates Muhammad and is also common among some Christian communities.

(18) Muslim women are not allowed to drive: Again this is not Islamic law but rather a local tradition in some of these so called "Islamic" countries. Quran has no restriction on the women moving freely in the society, whether this includes riding a horse, driving a car or flying an aeroplane. Local laws that require the women to be accompanied by a male relative whenever they travel are traditional laws that have NO basis in the Quran.

(19) Typically, fathers win custody of boys over the age of six and girls after the onset of puberty: This is only a local law that is not supported by the Quran. Cases of custody are to be decided on a case by case basis with the interest of the children being the priority in any judgment. God puts a great emphasis on protecting the right of the weak and unprotected kids, please see; 6:151-152, 17:31, 17:34, 2:233, 6:140, 60:12, 4:127, 4:2, 4:10, 33:5, 93:9, 2:215, .....

(20) Women must be segregated form men in public, work and places of worship: This is a common misconception even among some Muslims but has NO basis in the Quran. On the contrary, God meant for the women and men to be together with NO segregation whether in public, work or worship places. Hajj (pilgrimage) is a vivid example of how women and men are not segregated and worship in the same place, then go ahead with their lives and practice commerce after Hajj with no limits..

(21) "honor killings" of women: Murders by husbands or male relatives of women suspected of disobedience, usually a sexual indiscretion or marriage against the family's wishes. These are tribal laws, not Islamic laws. There is no such thing as HONOR killing in Islam (Submission.) All killings are condemned in the Quran. in the strongest language possible. Please see; 5:32, 6:151 and 17:33. Punishment for these killers will follow the same general rules in the Quran and would not get a lighter sentence for his claims even if they were true. After all, these killers violated the sacred laws of God in the Quran. The punishment in the Quran is based always on an attempt to save lives not to waste lives. Please see Capital Punishment in Islam.

(22) "Morality Police" keeps control on the behaviour of women: Islam (Submission) does not assign police for morality as such character is not created by force but rather by understanding of God's laws in the Quran. The practice of the so called "Morality Police" is a total innovation of some of these so called "Islamic" countries but has nothing to do with Islam (Submission.)

(23) Women cannot travel freely except in the company of a male relative, "mahram": This is a man made fabrication that has no support in the Quran. According to the Quran, women have no limitations on their moves, travels or activities. Men who hire themsleves guards on the women's moves do this out of their own wishes not beause of any religious law in the Quran.

[Clarke]

Personally, I think all three Abrahamic faiths are incorrect for a very fundamental reason, even more fundamental than the teachings being "unjust".

An entity that actually matched what God/Allah/Jehovah is generally described as (nigh-infinite knowledge, power, "love") would not, IMO, actually behave in the way the Bible/Qu'ran/Torah describe. The books anthropomorphize both God and His motivations in a way that is simply unrealistic.

[Pa'li Makto]

You're entitled to your opinion and I think that no book that claims to be from God is foolproof.

I think the wisest thing in this situation is to give mainstream religion a wide berth..But of course that isn't for everyone.

This thread was merely just an info thread. Ashen Key knows what I mean when I say that I'm trying to provide people here with an alternate source of information regarding islam that isn't edited and scrutinised by the western mainstream media.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto

You're entitled to your opinion and I think that no book that claims to be from God is foolproof.

Is this not a self-defeating statement? Humans aren't that intelligent, in the grand scheme of things; surely it is not hard for the Almighty to write a foolproof book?