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#46
08-17-2011, 05:19 AM
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There are key differences in the modern concept of freedom of speech and the postmodern view of tolerate all ideas. 
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#47
08-17-2011, 05:33 AM
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And that's your right.
I'm not so much "tolerate" (obviously to a degree), as "create an environment where people are free to express their beliefs, whatever they may be, and allow people to choose what aligns with them the most, or criticize/add input to those ideas to further evolve them." Again, a marketplace of ideas (and postmodernism is as welcome as any other).
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 The Dreamer's Manifesto Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad. "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception "Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden
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#48
08-17-2011, 06:48 AM
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Eugh..
You see this is why I normally refuse to say too much about what I believe in on debate forums. I'm not completely postmodernist but I can appreciate the idea that truth can be relative to whoever is trying to explain something. Like the idea of blind men trying to describe an elephant even though they can only describe one part of it.
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Always listening to The Orb: O.O.B.E...  My fanfic "The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing. The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly." -Chronicle of the First Age "Try to see the forest through her eyes." Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)
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#49
08-17-2011, 08:00 AM
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Judgers are people who tend to be naturally inclined towards having decisions made. They want to close things, settle the case, finish it, end it, put the final nail in the coffin. Indecisiveness and leaving things indeterminate leaves them frustrated. I usually find that they are good at becoming proficient or skillful at choice things. Perceivers on the other hand are naturally inclined to want decisions left open. They want to explore possibilities, entertain alternate avenues, keep a wide perspective. Narrow rules and rigidity tend to make them feel trapped and cornered. I find that they tend to be good at fixing something that is wrong or needs fixing. Together though, the two balance each other out very well. What just happened was a classic divide between the two temperaments. I will admit that I am a very stubborn judger. I need to settle an issue or it starts to bother me. Its probably my biggest flaw. Last edited by Banefull; 08-17-2011 at 08:33 AM.
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#50
08-17-2011, 09:51 AM
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It's very honourable of you to admit that you have flaws as a judger, we are all human after all. I suppose I might be too optimistic or idealistic but I just can't say that one way of believing or doing things is better than others. I'm more of a universal person who believes in equality of ideas than someone who can just determine that one way is better.
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Always listening to The Orb: O.O.B.E... My fanfic "The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing. The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly." -Chronicle of the First Age "Try to see the forest through her eyes." Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)
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#51
08-17-2011, 06:58 PM
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I can only determine that one way of thinking yields progress and the other doesn't yield much of anything except maybe some artistic or cultural "value". That's really my only criteria applicable in this situation, since we're calling into question data and observable proof.
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#53
08-17-2011, 07:55 PM
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^That.
 I'm usually a perceiver. I like to give a lot of topics a wide berth, but sometimes if a debate runs long I become a bit more of a judger. I take debate very seriously (I'll contemplate it all day before coming on here), and to be doing really long back-and-forths can become quite tiring after a while. I think that's another reason why strife can be so common on this forum. Back in the day, a lot more people on here were perceivers, or were at least more open to other opinions. Now it seems a lot more of those people have become judgers, and when they butt heads it can become quite ugly (sort of what I was talking about in the "Who are we?" thread).
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The Dreamer's Manifesto Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad. "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception "Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 08-17-2011 at 08:31 PM.
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#54
08-17-2011, 10:02 PM
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Hey, I'm just talking, not judging anyone. I try to keep it light and general, usually only one or two sentences. I'm sorry you seem to associate me with the decline of the quality of conversation on this forum.
 I simply meant to state why I choose what I choose. If you don't want to hear things like that, maybe you shouldn't start these kinds of threads.
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#55
08-17-2011, 10:26 PM
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I've stayed out of this thread simply because I find it easy to define, but I will point out that some people don't understand that observations can be made and that while intuition is useful in developing a theory, it then needs to be put to the test 
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#56
08-18-2011, 04:25 AM
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Not everything can be tested, like history for example.
__________________
Always listening to The Orb: O.O.B.E... My fanfic "The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing. The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly." -Chronicle of the First Age "Try to see the forest through her eyes." Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.)
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#57
08-18-2011, 11:02 AM
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Also, let me throw another spanner in the works. How the human brain lies to us – Boing Boing
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#58
08-18-2011, 11:29 AM
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__________________
Always listening to The Orb: O.O.B.E... My fanfic "The man who learns only what others know is as ignorant as if he learns nothing. The treasures of knowledge are the most rare, and guarded most harshly." -Chronicle of the First Age "Try to see the forest through her eyes." Réalisant mon espoir, Je me lance vers la gloire. Je ne regrette rien. (Making my hope come true, I hurl myself toward glory. I regret nothing.) Last edited by Pa'li Makto; 08-18-2011 at 11:34 AM.
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#59
08-18-2011, 02:17 PM
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Saying something isn't valid because knowledge improves is fallacious - it may make the old understanding invalid, certainly, but not the method of determination.
Clearly, there are no details of numbers, for example, other than archaeological evidence (reasonable assumptions of losses, traces of supply lines and their relative size, recovered historical accounts), but the actual data is still there - that goes for geological history too, when a date may be within 100,000 years or so.
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#60
08-18-2011, 07:37 PM
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Like I said before, history/archeology can only tell about the event itself. The politics of history (the rights and wrongs) are all in the eye of the beholder. Take the example of the Boston Massacre. We know what the event was: British police battling with angry colonists, but who was "at fault" (for lack of a better term)? Were the colonists killed in cold blood? Or was it self defense? You're going to here both from the respective sides.
Back to the three axioms: history can define existence, but identity and consciousness are relative. Like Pa'li said, history is usual told from the PoV of the victor. That's why I like Howard Zinn, because he tells the other side of history, from the PoV of the downtrodden, and it is usually a completely different story.
__________________
The Dreamer's Manifesto Mike Malloy, a voice of reason in a world gone mad. "You mustn't be afraid to dream a little bigger, darling." - Inception "Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very pissed off." - Tyler Durden Last edited by Tsyal Makto; 08-18-2011 at 07:41 PM.
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