The RDA can't do physics

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Clarke

There are no serious proposals to get to Mars, (perhaps experiments along the lines of, "Are we sure this is feasible?" but nothing like a planned mission) let alone out of the solar system.

There is a really, really simple possible answer to this bit - Avatar's Earth isn't the future of our Earth. Different timeline! So, nothing says that they didn't continue the Apollo program as planned, and nothing says that the US and the Soviets didn't decide to team up (as was actually on the table for a little while in the very, very early stages) and actually get going. Or whatever else may have happened to lead to an extra-solar colony by at LEAST 2127, if not before that (because the RDA being there for only 25 breaks in-story background, I'm inclined to go the colony was set up before the mine was operational).

Alternate timelines solve a lot of things.

[X.,.Pandora.,.X]

OOOOOOOK,

Clarke, It's a movie so chill. If you sat through Avatar thinking about all the physics equations you took the movie too seriously. It's meant to entertain, not to be factual.


/end thread?

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Ashen Key

There is a really, really simple possible answer to this bit - Avatar's Earth isn't the future of our Earth. Different timeline! So, nothing says that they didn't continue the Apollo program as planned, and nothing says that the US and the Soviets didn't decide to team up (as was actually on the table for a little while in the very, very early stages) and actually get going. Or whatever else may have happened to lead to an extra-solar colony by at LEAST 2127, if not before that (because the RDA being there for only 25 breaks in-story background, I'm inclined to go the colony was set up before the mine was operational).

Alternate timelines solve a lot of things.

Spacey-wacey solves even more.

Originally Posted by X.,.Pandora.,.X

OOOOOOOK,

Clarke, It's a movie so chill. If you sat through Avatar thinking about all the physics equations you took the movie too seriously. It's meant to entertain, not to be factual.

Actually, the first time I saw Avatar I managed to guess about 80% of the plot within the first half-hour. That kind of dented its entertainment value.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Yes, but still an order of magnitude less realistic.

See later.

Energy is intentionally vague. Everything in the Venture Star is possible, and as for Jake's spine, that's possibly the most ridiculous accusation yet.
Child Receives Trachea Organ Transplant Created With Own Stem Cells | Singularity Hub - we are now in the future. From there to a spine in 143 years seems reasonable.

I'm not saying "supertechnology" as "impossibility invented by Cameron," but as something that requires so many technological advances that we can't guess what it does to society in any reasonable way. For instance, the microprocessor is supertechnology. The Avatars are supertechnology, not because we don't have the biology know-how to build them, but because they'd revolutionize society. I mean, look at Surrogates, which is basically the same concept.

They can be sent up and down as needed. you're thinking of ISVs, which arrive approximately annually. It would have worked like this.
-Quaritch gives approval for Jake's spine to be fixed
-Puts Jake on a shuttle and into cryo on the ship
-Sends authorisation as stored data on the ISV, to arrive on Earth with the return trip, operation is done there.
I know you're getting desperate for points to use, but there's no flaw there.

So the FTL comm is there... why? Cameron put it in for a reason, presumably a reason important enough to sacrifice realism for.

Also reduced effectiveness in Pandora's atmosphere, increased maintenance (atmosphere again), and the necessary support structure for expensive experimental weapons.

...Go on, explain how the atmosphere means increased maintenance. Also, is this 140 years in the future or not? I'd have thought that, assuming you have the supercapacitor tech for them, energy weapons would have moved on from the "experimental" stage.

Equipment, however, is not. Neither is bandwidth unlimited.

Why would bandwidth be a problem? Who would they be talking to who isn't right there?

That is because they still have private industry behind them - when they start to become less profitable, all that research funding gets switched - but it hasn't yet.

Which is exactly what I was saying earlier about Unobtanium. When you have the entire industry behind you, your synthesis research is going to get stupid amounts of funding.

Yes, it's certainly possible, but the truth is, no such steps have yet been taken and the deadline in terms of not creating an energy gap is rapidly approaching.

We'll find a way. Profit, remember.

The simple fact that it's being looked at shows human ambition - don't complain because it hasn't happened yet.

I'm not complaining because we're not on Mars; I'd be complaining if someone suggested that we should go to Mars for profit. Except Unobtanium is a couple of million times worse.

It also breaks the basis of real physics, as well as allowing people to go 'why travel FTL with the only destination being get something that is used for FTL?', not to mention complaints of it taking 3 years, still.

Quote Babylon 5: "With all this technology, it STILL takes forever to get anywhere!"
FTL != instant, in normal sci-fi terms.

Even moderately intelligent people profess to greater knowledge, and by having it slower than light, it seems more realistic than 'slow FTL' where a lot of people would expect all FTL to be very fast. It's a simple determination of which is perceived as realistic by people with a low to moderate understanding, who will be the most likely to complain.

Well, yes, it's more realistic, but we aren't necessarily writing realistic fiction. Avatar professes to be realistic, hence the problem when it isn't.

Congratulations on missing the point. The point was that what they are developing as a result can be used for large-scale 'real' applications. I thought that was obvious.

"PR/tech growth purposes?"

You seem to be looking for any way you can to bash Avatar. You'd be surprised at the detail, you need only look at the design process for the animals for an example - nothing made it into it that didn't work logically and physically.

...Hometree works, physically? I'd have thought it'd crush itself under its own weight. (even after taking into account the 80% gravity)

No, because it was intended for Tom and they were trying to make the best of a bad situation. Did you even watch Avatar?

Yes. All the major humans make at least one stupid mistake.

Again - they would have lost more by leaving it on Earth and not trying to get some use of it with Jake, while from their perspective, even if Jake was only there for a short time and still benefited them in some way, they have recovered even a small amount of investment in Tom that would otherwise have been gone.

Jake becomes a liability possibly as soon as he plugs into the thing. He definitely becomes a liability as soon as he starts learning from Neytiri. However, by that point, it's too late to remove him. Doing so invokes the forbidden fruit effect, (even if you don't strip him of his completely addictive superhuman abilities) and now he definitely isn't working in your interest anymore.

The psychological effect of giving someone like Jake a superhuman body is not that hard to forsee, and yet nobody did anything about it until the very end when it was too late. (And even that was only when he explicitly acted against the RDA.)

Because Reality Is Unrealistic, right?
You're bashing a work of fiction with a habitable world in the closest star system to Earth, populated by a sentient species, with a perfect superconductor present there, over something that has never even been mentioned in canon.
I really couldn't make this up

Equally, believable != realistic. All of what you just listed is possible, if unlikely. The circumstances required for interstellar mining to be profitable are not. They require a too-contrived combination of available technologies.

Though the flying mountains are impossible, both physically and with Cameron's technobabble justification. He needs heavier-duty phlebotinum to get that to work.

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Clarke

So the FTL comm is there... why? Cameron put it in for a reason, presumably a reason important enough to sacrifice realism for.

There's a reason it's only in the background: otherwise, the kind of person who looks for those things to nitpick would complain about the lack of it, saying that no FTL in 143 years is fair enough, but there should at least be some communication.
Anyway, how do you know it isn't going to be a point in a sequel?

...Go on, explain how the atmosphere means increased maintenance.

H2S is acidic and could easily damage equipment such as seals over time compared to an Earth atmosphere, in addition to mechanical stress from density.

Also, is this 140 years in the future or not? I'd have thought that, assuming you have the supercapacitor tech for them, energy weapons would have moved on from the "experimental" stage.

Fine if you want them with a cable on them. A portable power source good for more than 2 shots... not so easy. Again, an energy weapon would suffer massive thermal blooming in such an atmosphere and the atmospheric density would also reduce power.

Why would bandwidth be a problem? Who would they be talking to who isn't right there?

Are you sure you're tracking the right thread of conversation here? Until recently, you were talking about communicating with Earth.

Which is exactly what I was saying earlier about Unobtanium. When you have the entire industry behind you, your synthesis research is going to get stupid amounts of funding.[/quote]
Yes, but never instant results (or even within a guaranteed time period like your bizarre 'anything will take 80 years' belief) - that was my entire point, which you just helped me prove via the conspicuous absence of fusion in the present day

I'm not complaining because we're not on Mars; I'd be complaining if someone suggested that we should go to Mars for profit. Except Unobtanium is a couple of million times worse.[/quote]
What if a private company was in a position to offer flights to Mars to any space agency willing to pay them? They could turn a profit even with high prices, which would, from the space agency's point of view, still be less than the price of development, testing and deployment of an entire launch and delivery system independently of other agencies. That was my original point on this part - try reading it before you start bashing.

Well, yes, it's more realistic, but we aren't necessarily writing realistic fiction. Avatar professes to be realistic, hence the problem when it isn't.

Again, you're confusing possible and realistic with your own vision of how the future should be. A global e-democracy where every single person on the earth votes on each decision is possible and realistic in that it could be done within physical and technological constraints, but is not at all practical with the current state of the world.

"PR/tech growth purposes?"

You act like the two are mutually exclusive. PR doesn't actually come into it so much, while nobody is developing the technology for its own sake, but to sell it to organisations like NASA/ESA.

...Hometree works, physically? I'd have thought it'd crush itself under its own weight. (even after taking into account the 80% gravity)

...so why don't much larger structures on Earth?
Possibly not with any Earth tree in terms of wood's strength, but now you're just deliberately applying fallacious logic.

Jake becomes a liability possibly as soon as he plugs into the thing. He definitely becomes a liability as soon as he starts learning from Neytiri. However, by that point, it's too late to remove him. Doing so invokes the forbidden fruit effect, (even if you don't strip him of his completely addictive superhuman abilities) and now he definitely isn't working in your interest anymore.

As it was, they might at least attempt to recoup some of the investment. You can't tell who is a 'liability' without it happening - indeed, ALL of the marines were certainly one, albeit a partially necessary one.

The psychological effect of giving someone like Jake a superhuman body is not that hard to forsee, and yet nobody did anything about it until the very end when it was too late. (And even that was only when he explicitly acted against the RDA.)

...or, they assumed he would be more than happy to go back to Earth at the end, where it is safe, and to get restorative surgery on his spine to walk in his own body.

Equally, believable != realistic. All of what you just listed is possible, if unlikely. The circumstances required for interstellar mining to be profitable are not. They require a too-contrived combination of available technologies.

Yes, but you're bashing it for a fictional compound having properties that aren't defined because they never needed to be, over obvious and completely necessary assumptions that would honestly be a far riper target for bashing it as a film, despite being necessary for the plot.

PS. The penetration depth for magnetic fields interacting with a superconductor varies. You're making an assumption based on known ones when, if it is described as phlebotinium, it can be any penetration depth required.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Human No More

There's a reason it's only in the background: otherwise, the kind of person who looks for those things to nitpick would complain about the lack of it, saying that no FTL in 143 years is fair enough, but there should at least be some communication.
Anyway, how do you know it isn't going to be a point in a sequel?

I don't, but Cameron's ability to foreshadow doesn't fill me with confidence.

H2S is acidic and could easily damage equipment such as seals over time compared to an Earth atmosphere, in addition to mechanical stress from density.

Assuming that the concentration of H2S is 1000ppm, which gives Quaritch basically no chance at all, then the concentration of the resulting acid is.... about the same as household vinegar. This would not that much of an impediment to a robot, especially if it's constructed out of acid-resistant material. (Plastics and glass are good for that) Also, constant pressure does not cause mechanical stress.

Fine if you want them with a cable on them. A portable power source good for more than 2 shots... not so easy. Again, an energy weapon would suffer massive thermal blooming in such an atmosphere and the atmospheric density would also reduce power.

"...assuming you have the supercapacitor tech..."

And the thermal blooming is only an issue with some types of weapons. Lightning or microwave guns don't suffer from it.

Are you sure you're tracking the right thread of conversation here? Until recently, you were talking about communicating with Earth.

No, because it keeps splitting up and merging together. The only reason you'd have the bots communicating with Earth is if bandwidth is functionally unlimited. In that case, humans on the base are unnecessary. If you can't have FTL bandwidth, you put a few humans on the base to mind the robots.

Yes, but never instant results (or even within a guaranteed time period like your bizarre 'anything will take 80 years' belief) - that was my entire point, which you just helped me prove via the conspicuous absence of fusion in the present day

...because there is less of a commercial interest in it. We seem to be going around in circles.

What if a private company was in a position to offer flights to Mars to any space agency willing to pay them? They could turn a profit even with high prices, which would, from the space agency's point of view, still be less than the price of development, testing and deployment of an entire launch and delivery system independently of other agencies. That was my original point on this part - try reading it before you start bashing.

But what would you do once on Mars? Similarly, what do you once on Pandora? The only answer I can think of is science.

Again, you're confusing possible and realistic with your own vision of how the future should be. A global e-democracy where every single person on the earth votes on each decision is possible and realistic in that it could be done within physical and technological constraints, but is not at all practical with the current state of the world.

The current state of the world is overwritten by the technology/infrastructure required to make that possible.

You act like the two are mutually exclusive. PR doesn't actually come into it so much, while nobody is developing the technology for its own sake, but to sell it to organisations like NASA/ESA.

...who aren't trying to make a profit off of it.

...so why don't much larger structures on Earth?
Possibly not with any Earth tree in terms of wood's strength, but now you're just deliberately applying fallacious logic.

Because structures on Earth are built vertically, not leaning sideways. The center of gravity in that shot clearly does not line up with the actual certical of the tree, ergo, it should fall over.

As it was, they might at least attempt to recoup some of the investment. You can't tell who is a 'liability' without it happening - indeed, ALL of the marines were certainly one, albeit a partially necessary one.

...Can't you? I mean, you can anticipate what someone's going to do under a given set of circumstances. You might not get it right, but you can try.

...or, they assumed he would be more than happy to go back to Earth at the end, where it is safe, and to get restorative surgery on his spine to walk in his own body.

Why would you assume he'd be fine with that? I mean, it's not as though an Avatar is superhumanly athletic or anything. Also, you might wind up hitting PTSD effects; he might like being in danger, since he's so used to it.

Yes, but you're bashing it for a fictional compound having properties that aren't defined because they never needed to be, over obvious and completely necessary assumptions that would honestly be a far riper target for bashing it as a film, despite being necessary for the plot.

Actually, I'm not sure "unsynthesisable even by magic" is defined as a property of unobtanium.

PS. The penetration depth for magnetic fields interacting with a superconductor varies. You're making an assumption based on known ones when, if it is described as phlebotinium, it can be any penetration depth required.

You can assume zero penetration if you like, the calculations still come out ridiculous.

[Moco Loco]

Originally Posted by X.,.Pandora.,.X

OOOOOOOK,

Clarke, It's a movie so chill. If you sat through Avatar thinking about all the physics equations you took the movie too seriously. It's meant to entertain, not to be factual.


/end thread?

Don't even. This will be a battle until the end of time. Unless...

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Clarke

Spacey-wacey solves even more.

Not really - it's a fairly simple explanation to solve the technology-gap. It's not our Earth, so the history is different, so the future is going to be different. Problem solved.

I can roll with the technology of Blade Runner and Minority Report, too, because clearly they are different Earths. It's a fairly common sci-fi conceit.

And if you can't roll with THAT, what is the point of being in a sci-fi fandom?

(...you've got ME defending Avatar's world-building, what is the world coming to...)

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Clarke

I don't, but Cameron's ability to foreshadow doesn't fill me with confidence.

That's your own problem.

Assuming that the concentration of H2S is 1000ppm, which gives Quaritch basically no chance at all, then the concentration of the resulting acid is.... about the same as household vinegar. This would not that much of an impediment to a robot, especially if it's constructed out of acid-resistant material. (Plastics and glass are good for that) Also, constant pressure does not cause mechanical stress.

Moving does, not to mention the 20% CO2 for acidity, which would, if anything, show a stronger effect.

"...assuming you have the supercapacitor tech..."

A capacitor does not charge instantly. Power cells are limited in their discharge rate, and again, you would get maybe 1-2 shots.

And the thermal blooming is only an issue with some types of weapons. Lightning or microwave guns don't suffer from it.

Do you even KNOW how much energy is in lightning? Also useless from ground level as it would earth by the user, likely killing them.
Microwaves sufficient to cause injury have the added danger of being hazardous to the user from even diffuse reflections. Nobody's that stupid to make one as a weapon.

No, because it keeps splitting up and merging together. The only reason you'd have the bots communicating with Earth is if bandwidth is functionally unlimited. In that case, humans on the base are unnecessary. If you can't have FTL bandwidth, you put a few humans on the base to mind the robots.

For about the tenth time, bandwidth is not unlimited.

...because there is less of a commercial interest in it. We seem to be going around in circles.

Again - there is plenty of interest, it's just from the only organisations well-funded enough and without vested interests against it.

But what would you do once on Mars? Similarly, what do you once on Pandora? The only answer I can think of is science.

Once again, read my previous post first. Not only is a single solar system a huge risk, but overpopulation on one planet is not tenable infinitely.

The current state of the world is overwritten by the technology/infrastructure required to make that possible.

So in other words, it's possible and realistic, just not practical.

...who aren't trying to make a profit off of it.

Which part of "sell" (or license, or charge for use, I guess) don't you understand

Because structures on Earth are built vertically, not leaning sideways. The center of gravity in that shot clearly does not line up with the actual certical of the tree, ergo, it should fall over.

Trees have something called roots, which for a tree of that size, would potentially extend miles. Humans can build structures that at first glance should not stay up, too. You CAN find leaning trees on Earth on a smaller scale - nothing makes it structurally impossible just because you wanted a film with spess mehrens instead of Avatar.

You might not get it right, but you can try.

Indeed, particularly when the person is not necessarily intelligent nor stupid.

Why would you assume he'd be fine with that? I mean, it's not as though an Avatar is superhumanly athletic or anything. Also, you might wind up hitting PTSD effects; he might like being in danger, since he's so used to it.

He still agreed to it, didn't he?
They even mentioned the pay when first explaining it to him, when he already clearly can not afford to get his spine fixed, added further upon in the CE.
(Are you sure you've watched Avatar? )

Actually, I'm not sure "unsynthesisable even by magic" is defined as a property of unobtanium.

magic

lol wut

You can assume zero penetration if you like, the calculations still come out ridiculous.

A penetration depth of zero would actually be worse - again, it's a fictional material.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Human No More

That's your own problem.

JC's writing quality is another topic, unfortunately.

Moving does, not to mention the 20% CO2 for acidity, which would, if anything, show a stronger effect.

Any sort of significant acidity in the air would have blinded/killed Quaritch instantly. If it's an issue, coat most of the robot in plastic/glass/other difficult thing to dissolve.

A capacitor does not charge instantly. Power cells are limited in their discharge rate, and again, you would get maybe 1-2 shots.

What, even with capacitors measured in tens of kilofarads? It doesn't take that much energy to kill a human(-like).

Do you even KNOW how much energy is in lightning?

I don't mean a literal lightning bolt gun, I mean this thing. Sorry for the confusion.

Microwaves sufficient to cause injury have the added danger of being hazardous to the user from even diffuse reflections. Nobody's that stupid to make one as a weapon.

Active Denial System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Turn that up a couple of notches, and say hello, H.G. Well's Martians.

For about the tenth time, bandwidth is not unlimited.

Then do as the latter half of that quote advises.

Again - there is plenty of interest, it's just from the only organisations well-funded enough and without vested interests against it.

The interest in unobtanium is going to be ordesr of magnitude more.

Once again, read my previous post first. Not only is a single solar system a huge risk, but overpopulation on one planet is not tenable infinitely.

How is a single solar system a huge risk? A single solar system could support a population of trillions if you were clever about it.

So in other words, it's possible and realistic, just not practical.

Realism usually implies a correalation with current reality, which includes the human condition. Overwriting the human condition isn't really what most people consider realistic, even if it is physically realistic.

Which part of "sell" (or license, or charge for use, I guess) don't you understand

Why do people buy it? At $20m/kg, it's questionable whether it's going to be economical.

You CAN find leaning trees on Earth on a smaller scale - nothing makes it structurally impossible just because you wanted a film with spess mehrens instead of Avatar.

Keywords, "smaller scale." Square-cube law applies in 0.8g just as badly as it does in 1g. And Hometree is on the order of 500m tall.

Also, I got SPAAAAAACE mehrens, in case you didn't notice. If I wanted space marines proper, I'd watch Starship Troopers..

Indeed, particularly when the person is not necessarily intelligent nor stupid.

Yet the RDA don't.

He still agreed to it, didn't he?

Only before he stepped into his Avatar. Jake isn't the most self-aware of people.

lol wut

"Sufficiently advanced technology is indistuinguishable from magic," and nanofabrication certainly counts as sufficiently advanced. It's pretty much impossible for that not to work, considering what it does. Implementing it is another question, but once implemented, it would work.

A penetration depth of zero would actually be worse - again, it's a fictional material.

Then pick a depth. Magnetic fields supporting the mountains are not feasible, no matter how you spin the properties of unobtanium. (Unless you abandon real science.)

[Human No More]

There are enough obvious mistakes that I'd guess the primary exposure to the plot was via Wikipedia

tm20 is starting to look very right from here.

Originally Posted by Clarke

JC's writing quality is another topic, unfortunately.

Any sort of significant acidity in the air would have blinded/killed Quaritch instantly. If it's an issue, coat most of the robot in plastic/glass/other difficult thing to dissolve.

You're ignoring the actual issue - that even if you can add a degree of environmental protection (glass? what.), you're overcomplicating it even further.

What, even with capacitors measured in tens of kilofarads? It doesn't take that much energy to kill a human(-like).

Sure... except that the higher the capacitance, the higher the current to charge. For that matter, there are more points to consider than just current in an energy weapon.

I don't mean a literal lightning bolt gun, I mean this thing. Sorry for the confusion.

Well, that's a far more realistic idea, but you're still forgetting that there are weapons that work, there is no reason to develop mew ones for their own sake (and, if you actually ever bothered to read any background rather than just keep wildly bashing at anything you can see, you'd know that within militaries, the widespread availability of EMP weaponry has caused a resurgence in equipment which does not require electronic control to function)

Active Denial System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Turn that up a couple of notches, and say hello, H.G. Well's Martians.

Which part of 'not a military' don't you understand?
I am now convinced you're trying to troll people.

Then do as the latter half of that quote advises.

Which robots?
Humans are not going to explore space only with robots if there's any possibility of going there, now or ever.
Don't complain becuase Avatar isn't the film you wanted to watch with spess mehren robots with lazors and ridiculous magic nanotechnology.

The interest in unobtanium is going to be ordesr of magnitude more.

...so we're back to your weird '80 years' belief against all evidence?
IT HAS NOT EVEN BEEN KNOWN FOR 80 YEARS ANYWAY.

How is a single solar system a huge risk? A single solar system could support a population of trillions if you were clever about it.

I thought you were comlaining becuase current-day Earth didn;t have eniugh energy for that. You are quite possibly the least logically consistent perso I have ever argued with?
It's a risk due to any number of factors from accident to war that could wipe out a majority to all of humanity.

Realism usually implies a correalation with current reality, which includes the human condition. Overwriting the human condition isn't really what most people consider realistic, even if it is physically realistic.

Or maybe you just don't like what you see because humans aren't all good guys who save everyone for once, but instead, it reflects ALL of humanity.

Why do people buy it? At $20m/kg, it's questionable whether it's going to be economical.

Who buys it? Who says that wasn't an arbitrary value? (for shipping purposes?) It's used by the RDA themselves, you don't get random people buying pieces of it in supermarkets.

Keywords, "smaller scale." Square-cube law applies in 0.8g just as badly as it does in 1g. And Hometree is on the order of 500m tall.

So it's both shorter and wider than some human structures, not to mention having a larger structural cross section.
...you really don't think your arguments through, do you?

Yet the RDA don't.

Read what I just said. Most people there are either intelligent like Grace, Norm and Max, or stupid like Selfridge, Quaritch and Wainfleet. Jake is neither. They assumed that getting his leg function back would be what he wanted most - they were wrong there, but that doesn't mean they were careless.

Only before he stepped into his Avatar. Jake isn't the most self-aware of people.

I never said otherwise.
Remember that to the perspective of most people, Pandora is hugely dangerous and hard to live in, so they just expect others to share that. Jake thought it at first and would have continued to if not for the Omatikaya.

"Sufficiently advanced technology is indistuinguishable from magic," and nanofabrication certainly counts as sufficiently advanced. It's pretty much impossible for that not to work, considering what it does. Implementing it is another question, but once implemented, it would work.

...and this film has neither. You're complaining about your favourite plot devices not being present again.

Then pick a depth. Magnetic fields supporting the mountains are not feasible, no matter how you spin the properties of unobtanium. (Unless you abandon real science.)

Again, read what I've just being saying. The depth will affect the strength of the repulsion without needing to change the moon's field strength.

[Clarke]

Originally Posted by Tsyal Makto

No, Avatar doesn't follow science to an absolute tee, but the way you're sounding, it's like you're putting it on the same level as something like Armageddon. Really now?

The plot relies on immensly implausible things working with no suitable handwave. (Like I said, there's all sorts of ways of writing around this, considering how many plot devices the sci-fi genre gives you access to.) That's not very high on the scale of good writing. Armageddon/The Core, etc, is worse, but that has nothing to do with Avatar's flaws.

Clarke, with your (I don't mean this in a derogatory fashion) seemingly anal retentive mindset, were you able to enjoy Avatar as a movie?

Yes. Why do you think I'm writing a tribute/parody of it?

Originally Posted by Human No More

There are enough obvious mistakes that I'd guess the primary exposure to the plot was via Wikipedia

Just because I think differently to you doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, thank you. I have seen the film (twice) but the most recent time was over 6 months ago and I don't have any background material, so excuse me for not knowing the whole canon inside out.

You're ignoring the actual issue - that even if you can add a degree of environmental protection (glass? what.), you're overcomplicating it even further.

The original reason this was brought up was that you said that operating robots in Pandora's atmosphere wouldn't be practical, and so I gave a solution to engineer around that. Complexity isn't really relavent so long as your fabricator can produce the thing; one design (massless) can produce an indefinite number of robots. Humans require you to use terawatts upon terawatts for each and every one of them.

This is despite the fact that we are shown evidence that Pandora's atmosphere isn't particularly harmful to something that doesn't need to breathe. If it was acidic as you imply it was, Quartich would have been dead as soon as he took a step outside.

(The glass mention was because it was the first acid-resistant thing that sprang to mind.)

Sure... except that the higher the capacitance, the higher the current to charge. For that matter, there are more points to consider than just current in an energy weapon.

C=Q/V. Current is variable and can be changed depending on context.

Well, that's a far more realistic idea, but you're still forgetting that there are weapons that work, there is no reason to develop mew ones for their own sake

They're not for their own sake: solid-state weapons, which an electrolaser would be, involve less maintenance, zero possibility of jamming, and the trump card: zero massive ammo. Every gram is costing you GWhs to ship, remember.

(and, if you actually ever bothered to read any background rather than just keep wildly bashing at anything you can see, you'd know that within militaries, the widespread availability of EMP weaponry has caused a resurgence in equipment which does not require electronic control to function)

Not real physics. Or rather, not real history. During the Cold War, the US defense infrastructure was almost entirely shielded from EMPs.

Which part of 'not a military' don't you understand?
I am now convinced you're trying to troll people.

It's not like military technology gets traded around, sold off, and contracted out, is it? ...Oh wait.

Which robots?

...I do not understand. You know which robots.

Humans are not going to explore space only with robots if there's any possibility of going there, now or ever.

And yet actual space exploration seems to disagree. We could have men on Mars, but NASA decided to drop a bunch of probes instead, presumably because it's cheaper and safer.

In the case of Pandora, the numbers stack even more. Robots don't come back, and so don't burn umpteen tons of antimatter for a return trip. (And even if it's not antimatter being used, the energy cost is still the same.) Robots can even be manufactured on site, and so don't require antimatter burns to arrive either, saving oodles and oodles of energy. Win-win?

Don't complain becuase Avatar isn't the film you wanted to watch with spess mehren robots with lazors and ridiculous magic nanotechnology.

Can I complain when spess mehrens robots and lazors is a more efficient solution to the RDA's obstential goal?

...so we're back to your weird '80 years' belief against all evidence?
IT HAS NOT EVEN BEEN KNOWN FOR 80 YEARS ANYWAY.

No, we're back to the complete madness of gambling umpteen trillion kWhs on the idea that technology will not advance, despite the fact that every single company in the relavent industry will be investing billions and billions into R&D of the specific technology you're gambling against. It'd be like gambling, say, half of Microsoft's net value on the idea that computing hardware will not advance at all in the next two decades. No sane businessperson would accept it.

I thought you were comlaining becuase current-day Earth didn;t have eniugh energy for that. You are quite possibly the least logically consistent perso I have ever argued with?

I was complaining because ridiculously energetic future Earth doesn't have the energy to send things off to other solar systems. Colonising the solar system would require quite a bit less energy than that. (And by the time the population reaches trillions, you'll probably have the technology needed to actually get to other solar systems.)

It's a risk due to any number of factors from accident to war that could wipe out a majority to all of humanity.

Even if they're across different planets/moons/environments?

Or maybe you just don't like what you see because humans aren't all good guys who save everyone for once, but instead, it reflects ALL of humanity.

Nobody is delibrately, clear-cut evil.

Who buys it? Who says that wasn't an arbitrary value? (for shipping purposes?) It's used by the RDA themselves, you don't get random people buying pieces of it in supermarkets.

Why would they use it? I mean, I'd be really surprised if their electrical losses added up to more than $20m * however much is needed to fix them. ...And the overhead of changing out all the infrastructure. And this is after you apply all the other cost-cutting methods, like turning voltages up and so forth.

So it's both shorter and wider than some human structures,

...and built out of an equivalent to cellolose, not steel. What possible evolutionary advantage is there for a tree to grow that excessivly tall?

not to mention having a larger structural cross section.

A larger cross-section starts working against you when the structure is leaning sideways. Also, even if falling over laterally isn't too much of an issue, the structure collapsing under its own weight straight down still is. Hometree is hollow, so there's plenty of space for things to fall into.

Read what I just said. Most people there are either intelligent like Grace, Norm and Max, or stupid like Selfridge, Quaritch and Wainfleet.

Your list appears rather biased.

Jake is neither. They assumed that getting his leg function back would be what he wanted most - they were wrong there, but that doesn't mean they were careless.

And my point was that it is, IMO, fairly idiotic to make that assumption.

Remember that to the perspective of most people, Pandora is hugely dangerous and hard to live in, so they just expect others to share that. Jake thought it at first and would have continued to if not for the Omatikaya.

Yet there's the conversation between Jake and Quartich where IIRC, Quaritch sounds like he's beginning to suspect that Jake is not playing for the RDA anymore. At that point, Quartich should've started investigating and pulled Jake out ASAP. (of course, doing so while giving Jake as little hint as possible of his doing anything wrong.)

...and this film has neither.

See earlier about the business sense of mining Unobtanium. Although it is, from some data, unrealistic for the film to have neither, that's not actually anything to do with the film. I can accept that JC wants a certain asthetic, or tech level, because he has a certain story to tell.

Again, read what I've just being saying. The depth will affect the strength of the repulsion without needing to change the moon's field strength.

And my point is that even with perfect numbers in the relavent places, it still won't work, because magnetism is simply not that far-reaching.

[Ashen Key]

Originally Posted by Clarke

..and built out of an equivalent to cellolose, not steel. What possible evolutionary advantage is there for a tree to grow that excessivly tall?

Eh, who says that the Hometrees are perfectly natural? I actually always assumed they were deliberately grown that way. The mere fact that you've got...hmm, roughly 350-400 Omaticaya members in one tree (based counting the number of Na'vi in the basin when Jake arrives with the toruk, and guessing at how many were killed just previously), and then logically you'd have a similar number in the two other visible Hometrees, which means you have maybe 1200 9ft bipeds within a relatively small area of the jungle. Without destroying said environment. To me, that says that they are managing the area, maybe even encouraging things to grow with the hormones mentioned in ASG. Also, somewhere I read that the Hometrees aren't a single tree, but a group grown together.

So, eh, I don't think the Hometrees would naturally occur, they are encouraged.

[Eltu]

Removed some of the posts in this thread due to personal attacks - just because someone is interested in discussing some details in the film seen from a strictly scientific perspective, it doesn't mean said person automatically dislikes or "talks **** about" Avatar. Everyone has their own way of looking at the movie, and saying that someone's opinion is bad because it's different is honestly quite disrespectful.

Of course, not everyone is interested in discussing these aspects of the movie - but it's the thread topic, and nobody is forcing anyone to post in this specific thread.

So, please do not post such comments in the future, as they are both uncalled for and can be seen as quite offensive.

[Enkrptic-Navi]

Interesting discussion...perhaps it would be better defined as "The RDA can't do physics BUT they can do Quantum Mechanics"

Ok, so what am I talking about? If you fans out there would refer to your "Avatar: An Activists Survival Guide" you'd notice the communications system used is "Superluminal" in nature. Superluminal communications is a theory that takes advantage of a loophole in normal physics which in effect breaks the principals of causality. Thus you can change the outcome of an event after its happened. It's all very complicated but there it is. If you look deeper you'll find it ties into string theory which is an even deeper subject which I will not even attempt to explain here. It would just take to long. So this brings me back to my first point. RDA can't do physics but they do Quantum Mechanics very nicely. =) Aketuan

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Clarke

The plot relies on immensly implausible things working with no suitable handwave. (Like I said, there's all sorts of ways of writing around this, considering how many plot devices the sci-fi genre gives you access to.) That's not very high on the scale of good writing. Armageddon/The Core, etc, is worse, but that has nothing to do with Avatar's flaws.p

Again, wrong. Things that aren't possible in 2011, yes, but all perfectly plausible, and, if you leave the FTL communication out for the time being, 100% possible in 2011 if the resources were available.

This is why you seem to be a troll to many people. Your thread title is completely wrong, and while the OP was a valid observation in terms of energy requirements, it described things that are completely physically possible, so the title was 100% inaccurate, while you have now moved to complaining about things you wanted to see which would have required an entirely different background for the film, then backtracked repeatedly there, and flipped between saying you like Avatar and making numerous fallacious assumptions and criticising it in a very elitist manner.

Yes. Why do you think I'm writing a tribute/parody of it?

I'd say the majority of parodies are not written by people who like them. they might disguise it as that, but if you actually watch/read them, they turn out to be critical. A tribute is something entirely different.

Just because I think differently to you doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, thank you. I have seen the film (twice) but the most recent time was over 6 months ago and I don't have any background material, so excuse me for not knowing the whole canon inside out.

That's the issue. You're a Doctor Who fan, I know, but I wouldn't go complaining about it even on here, and certainly not on a fan forum for it, without at the very least having read up on canon from official sources and with arguments reasoned within the universe of the series - which is beside the point in that I do not feel the need to complain about merely because it is not to my taste.

The original reason this was brought up was that you said that operating robots in Pandora's atmosphere wouldn't be practical, and so I gave a solution to engineer around that. Complexity isn't really relavent so long as your fabricator can produce the thing; one design (massless) can produce an indefinite number of robots. Humans require you to use terawatts upon terawatts for each and every one of them.

Yet again, you're still not only needing resources for that, but humans to operate and maintain them, and (again), you're going against the entire spirit of human exploration - if it is possible to go there, people WILL. On a more practical point, it simply would not be usable enough in many cases, even before the fact that their contract limitations may well include the use of humans to avoid damage. Also, just mining random metals isn't enough to produce some kind of ridiculous super robot that can do anything, you need huge amounts of rare earths, electronics, and more detailed manufacturing processes than are available off Earth.

This is despite the fact that we are shown evidence that Pandora's atmosphere isn't particularly harmful to something that doesn't need to breathe. If it was acidic as you imply it was, Quartich would have been dead as soon as he took a step outside.

I was just pointing it out as another long-term effect. Humans can actually survive it quite well, but the increased maintenance requirement on machines over the long term would not be insignificant. Certainly, it isn't one of the largest problems on its own, but adds to the implausibility of your fantasies.

C=Q/V. Current is variable and can be changed depending on context.

Higher voltage batteries are harder to produce, as well as as a general rule larger, bulkier, and more expensive.

They're not for their own sake: solid-state weapons, which an electrolaser would be, involve less maintenance, zero possibility of jamming, and the trump card: zero massive ammo. Every gram is costing you GWhs to ship, remember.

1. No, they don't cost anything to ship, when projectiles are made locally
2. So batteries now have zero mass?
3. Military
4. That's significantly higher maintenance
5. Experimental weapons 4.4 light years away at a huge cost just to play spess mehren fantasies, or proven, cheap, reliable ones where the vast majority of components do not need to be brought 4.4 light years?

Not real physics. Or rather, not real history. During the Cold War, the US defense infrastructure was almost entirely shielded from EMPs.

Just create a warhead that penetrates the outer structure THEN delivers one. Done. There's no explanation of how, so necessary assumptions can be made.

[quote]It's not like military technology gets traded around, sold off, and contracted out, is it? ...Oh wait. [/qote]
My previous attempt didn't work, so I'll spell this out as clearly as I can.
1. The RDA is not a military
2. They are not a government
3. They do not have access to military weapons (if BAE or Lockheed Martin or whoever decided to start building their own stuff for a private army, I am fairly sure governments would come down VERY hard on them)
4. There are limitations on weapons they can use (since they are supposed to be for DEFENCE), and I'm fairly sure that torture does not come into it.

Clear enough? I don't want to have to explain this YET AGAIN to you.

...I do not understand. You know which robots.

Again, the nonexistent ones.

This particular part was the following: Bandwidth is not unlimited, so robots can not be used, while humans woukld not explore space with robots if there was any possibility of actually going. /hence, "which robots" was reiterating the point that they are not used. "You know which robots" is a complete non sequitur for that reason, because there ARE no robots, and my point was that none are in use.

And yet actual space exploration seems to disagree. We could have men on Mars, but NASA decided to drop a bunch of probes instead, presumably because it's cheaper and safer.

Yet they have not said "Nobody is going" (indeed, while performing numerous studies on everything from delivery systems to psychological to physical effects), which is the entire point - indeed, the number speaks volumes about motivation for finding a REASON to send people.

In the case of Pandora, the numbers stack even more. Robots don't come back, and so don't burn umpteen tons of antimatter for a return trip. (And even if it's not antimatter being used, the energy cost is still the same.) Robots can even be manufactured on site, and so don't require antimatter burns to arrive either, saving oodles and oodles of energy. Win-win?

I'm going to stop replying to redundant points in the same post, because I don't think you read them anyway.
Energy is available in sufficient quantity that humans can go. Robots adds unnecessary complexity, completely changes the dynamic there, and required a large human presence ANYWAY, and far better-paid ones at that, in addition to a much higher demand for parts that can only be brought from Earth.

Can I complain when spess mehrens robots and lazors is a more efficient solution to the RDA's obstential goal?

No. That's like saying a world government and nuking iran is a more efficient solution to the problems the world faces today - technically, but nobody is going to do it.

No, we're back to the complete madness of gambling umpteen trillion kWhs on the idea that technology will not advance, despite the fact that every single company in the relavent industry will be investing billions and billions into R&D of the specific technology you're gambling against. It'd be like gambling, say, half of Microsoft's net value on the idea that computing hardware will not advance at all in the next two decades. No sane businessperson would accept it.

1. You're acting like unobtainium is the only thing on Pandora.
2. With the only knowledge of its structure, they are looking very secure.
3. With the above knowledge, they can understand how it may be extremely difficult to synthesise if it is ever managed.
4. The infrastructure developed can be reused for other locations if required. ISVs do not magically disappear.
5. Energy is cheap. This is a given, and actually less so than in the vast majority of scifi. You are complaining because it isn't available in 2011, which is ridiculous (as is assuming that the growth rate is non-exponential). You have also previously talked in 2011 numbers, when there is absolutely zero base for how much currency is worth in 2154.

I was complaining because ridiculously energetic future Earth doesn't have the energy to send things off to other solar systems. Colonising the solar system would require quite a bit less energy than that. (And by the time the population reaches trillions, you'll probably have the technology needed to actually get to other solar systems.)

1. Gambler's fallacy
2. Even the solar system as a whole won't support trillions without dyson spheres or some similar structure. This dnoes not preclude small initial presences elsewhere - indeed, arriving en masse without any base is amazingly stupid, even for one of your ideas - and again, ISVs will not magically disappear, and can be reused, on other routes if necessary.

Even if they're across different planets/moons/environments?

Depends on the risk factor.