Muammar Gadaffi killed

[Tsanten Eywa 'eveng]

Muammar Gadaffi has ben killed, and the war in Libya is finally over

The circumstances of his death are not yet clear. Video has emerged purporting to show Col Gaddafi being captured alive and bundled on to a truck.

Fighters loyal to the National Transitional Council (NTC) said they found him hiding in a hole, and shot him when he tried to escape.

Col Gaddafi was toppled in August after 42 years in power.

Western leaders welcomed the news.

US President Barack Obama said this was a "momentous day" for Libya, now that tyranny had fallen. He said Libya had a "long and winding road towards full democracy", but the US and other countries would stand behind it.

The colonel was fighting in Sirte alongside his two sons, Mutassim and Saif al-Islam, according to reports.

Officials say Mutassim was killed in battle on Thursday.

The NTC's Justice Minister Mohammad al-Alagi told the AP news agency Saif al-Islam had been captured and taken to hospital with a leg wound.

BBC News - Libya's Col Muammar Gaddafi killed, says NTC


Gaddafi Killed, NTC Tells Sky News - YouTube

[Advent]

Were I younger, and more impressionable, I would welcome such news greatly. But a death is still a death, even with the ending of tyranny and war.

[Raiden]

Advent, come on.

The guy was an evil douchebag, and he got what was coming to him.

War might be bad, but sometimes violence is necessary when corruption is involved. Also, "younger and more impressionable"?

You're like 13/14, right?

When people say "When I was younger and more impressionable" they're usually talking about their teenage years...

[xcrunner08]

Originally Posted by Raiden

Also, "younger and more impressionable"?

You're like 13/14, right?

When people say "When I was younger and more impressionable" they're usually talking about their teenage years...

My thoughts exactly lol...

[Advent]

True, but one important rule I live by is that death, of any kind, isn't something to celebrate. I''ll celebrate the end of the war, but not that.

Yes, I'm 14 now. But by 'younger and more impressionable' I mean as in, a year or two ago. I was far more immature back then, and I'd like to think I've grown up considerably in the mental department.

[Human No More]

Remember that he is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths and ruined lives.

Some people deserve what's coming to them, and he is one of them. It might have been better if he had survived and been tried, even if he was subsequently executed despite my opposition to the death penalty, but they did the best in the situation.

[Advent]

Originally Posted by Human No More

Remember that he is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths and ruined lives.

I know, but one death is the same as any other.

Originally Posted by Human No More

Some people deserve what's coming to them, and he is one of them. It might have been better if he had survived and been tried, even if he was subsequently executed despite my opposition to the death penalty, but they did the best in the situation.

Truthfully, nobody ever deserves anything, good or bad. It just happens. But anyway, I'm done making my point.

[Pa'li Makto]

I'm glad that the Libyan people got to him first rather than Nato. Although you have to question the West's reaction to this..They have supported him in the past.

[txim_asawl]

Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto

Although you have to question the West's reaction to this..They have supported him in the past.

Well, they began supporting him, when he claimed to stop issueing terrorist attacks on western countries, such as the bomb placed in the Berlin discotheque "La Belle" on the night of April 4, 1986 as an act of revenge for the US sinking two Libyan warships in the operation "Attain Document". Three people were killed, 28 severely injured, 250 sustaining ruptured eardrums. The US under president Reagan retaliated in the operation "El Dorado Canyon" by air-bombing Tripolis, killing civilians, too (official numbers are between 15 to 36 people). The attack on "La Belle" was organized by the "Libyisches Volksbüro" in East-Berlin, as later findings in the files of the "Ministerium für Staatssicherheit" proved.

Being responsible for numerous terrorist attacks in the past, one can understand the relief western leaders feel about the news of Gaddafi's death. On the other hand, as has been stated already, it is really sad that it had to happen this way instead of seeing him put before a proper court, for instance. While it's true that revolution and the fight against dictatorship often goes hand-in-hand with fighting and killing, I still sigh at times, shake my head and ask myself why we "civilized" human beings haven't found a better solution for dealing with this as yet...

~*Txim Asawl*~

[Human No More]

Originally Posted by Pa'li Makto

I'm glad that the Libyan people got to him first rather than Nato. Although you have to question the West's reaction to this..They have supported him in the past.

That is biased to the point of being fiction.
'Support' and lifting of sanctions came when he claimed to be ending involvement in both internal oppression and international terrorism - after all, when these resumed, libya immediately lost all status it had gained and then some.

Originally Posted by Tsanten Eywa 'eveng

I think that why could they not just capture him, and take him in prison, instead of killing him, the same question for Bin Laden

why could they not take Bin Laden in prison, instead of killing him?

People like him or bin laden were insane, delusional, and dangerous. they would not want to go quietly and be taken alive, and in the end, people who catch them do have a right to use force if necessary - they still attempted to take him alive, and that's what counts. Perhaps another military might have been able to, perhaps not, but either way, he's gone now.

[Pa'li Makto]

When I say that Gaddaffi had been supported in the past I mean after the sanctions were lifted.

This is pretty substantial support:

The US administrations of Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama were set on developing deep “military to military” ties with the Libyan regime of Muammar Gaddafi, classified US diplomatic cables released by Wikileaks on 24 August reveal.

The United States was keen to integrate Libya as much as possible into “AFRICOM,” the American military command for Africa which seeks to establish bases and station military forces permanently on the continent.

“We never would have guessed ten years ago that we would be sitting in Tripoli, being welcomed by a son of Muammar al-Qadhafi,” Senator Joseph Lieberman (Ind.-CT) said during an August 2009 meeting, which also included Senators John McCain and Susan Collins.

The records confirm that McCain, the Republican presidential candidate in 2008, strongly supported US arms sales to Libya and personally pledged to Muammar Gaddafi (also spelled “al-Qadhafi”) and his son Muatassim that he would push to get such transfers approved by Congress. McCain also revealed that the United States was training officers in Gaddafi’s army.

While the Americans pursued the relationship vigorously, they met with a cautious and sometimes “mercurial” response from the Libyans. In particular, the mistrustful Libyans wanted security guarantees that the Americans appeared reluctant to give.

“We can get [equipment] from Russia or China,” Muatassim told the visiting senators, “but we want to get it from you as a symbol of faith from the United States.”

In hindsight, given the US support for the NATO war against the Gaddafi regime, it is not difficult to understand why the Libyans wanted these guarantees.

Nevertheless, Gaddafi received high praise for his “counterterrorism” credentials from US officials.

The documents also reveal that the United States was keen to court Gaddafi’s sons, flying them to the United States for high level visits.

And, notably, none of the cables regarding high level meetings quoted in this post made any mention of American concerns about “human rights” in Libya. The issue never appeared on the bilateral agenda.

Does the removal of the Gaddafi regime now clear the way for the United States to pursue the plans for integrating Libya into AFRICOM under what the Americans must hope will be a pliable regime?

“Increased defense cooperation”

In January 2008, US Assistant Secretary of State David Welch met with Libyan Foreign Minister Abdulrahman Shalgam. The classified memo recording the meeting notes:

Welch underscored the importance of increased defense cooperation as a signal of normalcy in the bilateral military relationship, particularly when considering Libya’s relatively recent rescission from the state sponsors of terrorism in June 2006. A/S Welch added that the Libyan government should invite AFRICOM Commander General Ward to Libya to discuss AFRICOM in greater detail.

The Libyans responded positively but somewhat warily:

Shalgam voiced the Libyan government’s interest in discussing AFRICOM and welcomed General Ward’s visit. However, he cautioned, the old guard within the MOD [Ministry of Defense] does not favor closer ties with the USG [US government] (reftel). In particular, General Abubaker Younes, the second in command, is firmly against cooperation and will refuse to meet any American official as he views U.S. coalition forces in Iraq as an occupation force. Nonetheless, Shalgam explained that it is important for Ward to visit and dispel misinformation and mistrust of AFRICOM among the Libyan leadership. He reasserted Libya’s continued, strong objection to U.S. military forces in Africa.

Shalgam also raised the issue of six C-130 military transport planes that Libya had purchased from the United States in the early 1970s, but which were never delivered due to US sanctions that were imposed later on.

Courting Gaddafi and his sons

After President Barack Obama took office in January 2009, it appears General William Ward, the commander of AFRICOM did get his invitation to visit Libya the following March. Before his visit, Ward received a classified briefing document from the US Embassy in Tripoli setting out US priorities and goals in Libya as well as providing insights into the regime.

The American document notes that after Libya settled various claims to do with terrorism cases including the Pan Am 103 Lockerbie bombing, it:

allowed us to move forward on the Mil-Mil MOU [Military to Military Memorandum of Understanding], which was signed in Washington in January. It also increased the number of high-level visits between the two countries including Saif al-Islam al-Qadhafi’s two-week trip to the US in November and his brother Muatassim al-Qadhafi’s trip to Washington planned for April.

The memo again notes the mistrust on the Libyan side:

Despite the high-level interest in deepening the relationship, several old-guard regime figures remain skeptical about the re-engagement project and some facets of our interaction remain at the mercy of the often mercurial inner circle.

This was a reference to Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, whom the Americans note, often appeared cooler than his sons.

Seducing Libya on AFRICOM

Ward’s brief, according to the classified cable, was to help overcome Libyan suspicion of US military expansion into Africa. The document advises the general:

Since the former Secretary of State’s visit to Tripoli in September, regime officials have slowly come to terms with AFRICOM as we have explained more of your mission. A clear explanation of AFRICOM’s mandate and expected activities on the continent, as well as a two-way discussion on areas of military-to-military cooperation will be welcomed by your interlocutors.

Reiterating AFRICOM’s support and humanitarian roles while allaying their fears about American troops or bases on the continent is another message they will be keen to receive. While Libya is a strong partner on counterterrorism, the Libyans remain wary of initiatives that put foreign military or intelligence assets too close to their borders. They are unlikely to join the Trans-Sahara Counter Terrorism Partnership, due as much to unwillingness to appear subservient to US interests as genuine distrust of U.S. intentions from certain old-guard regime elements. Negotiations on the Mil-Mil MOU [Military to Military Memorandum of Understanding] stalled on Libyan insistence that the language include security assurances on par with our NATO obligations. AFRICOM’s capacity-building component and support for peacekeeping forces may appease some, but we expect your military interlocutors will use your visit as an opportunity to tie their cooperation to security assurances.

Gaddafi is a “Top partner”

The Ward memo states:

Libya is a top partner in combating transnational terrorism. The regime is genuinely concerned about the rise of Islamic terrorism in the Sahel and Sahara and worries that instability and weak governments to their south could lead to a “belt of terrorism” stretching from Mauritania to SOMALIA. Al-Qadhafi prides himself on his recent initiatives with Tuareg tribes to persuade them to lay down arms and spurn cooperation with al-Qaeda elements in the border region; this is an issue worth exploring with him, while being mindful that he will oppose U.S. military activity in what he views as his backyard.

US arms sales to Libya

Throughout bilateral discussions, the Ward briefing memo notes, “Libyan officials have been keen to purchase US military equipment - both lethal and non-lethal.” It adds:

Libyan officials presented “wish lists” in the context of signing the Mil-Mil MOU. Muatassim [Gaddafi] accompanied his father on a high-profile trip to Moscow in October to discuss potential deals, but his father’s trips to Belarus and Ukraine were seen as an attempt to bring the price-point down for weapons deals. Their wish-lists comprise both lethal and non-lethal materiel and we have told the GOL that sales will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, particularly since not all senior USG leaders who would have a say on the subject have been appointed by the new administration.

The Americans were clearly open to selling weapons to Gaddafi, but were noncommital, as Ward was advised:

In effect, the Libyans have made military sales a key litmus of US trust and future intentions. In response, you might say that the U.S. looks forward to developing the bilateral security relationship and this process will take time; the C130s are a commercial matter best pursued with Lockheed-Martin.

The memo to General Ward concludes:

We are confident that your visit to Tripoli will open new doors for continued cooperation. Military cooperation is a key metric to determine the extent to which the Libyan government wishes to engage with the US. We hope your visit will assuage the fears of the more conservative elements of the regime while paving the way for AFRICOM’s continued success.

Libya: How Gaddafi became a Western-backed dictator | Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal

[ZenitYerkes]

After seeing the video of the last seconds of life of Gadaffi, I just feel that nobody deserves this. Let it be the prisoners or the executioner, the images are...

But what other solutions were there. This is the world we live in, and by the way everything is going it seems as though so many people deserve deaths like these.

I would like to believe that an eye for an eye will make the world blind but then, what are the alternatives.

[Moco Loco]

I'm kind of indifferent to whether he has died or not. Everyone dies sometime, and at least his death means the end to such tyranny

[Pa'li Makto]

Truthfully, the world would be in a better place if no one commited things that would lead to their death although unfortunately such things do happen. I trust that the majority of people wouldn't willingly do such things as cruelty and genocide..

As for Gadaffi's death, I haven't seen it..It would be unbearable to watch. Though I'd imagine, from Zenit's account that it would be both humiliating and gruesome..Echoing Saddam Hussain's death I think..
No human deserves to die like that..Although in the same breath, no one deserves to be killed by government crackdowns, protesting for equality and democracy or from idealogical conflict, ie the amounts of people killed because Gaddafi loyalists tried to defend Sirte from the masses of Libyan people who don't support Gaddafi's regime.

[Aketuan]

I think it was for the good overall in the end...

though like some have mentioned, I'm not sure he should have been executed.