The Mission...

[rapunzel77]

I had only seen the last part of this movie while I was flipping channels a couple of years ago and what I saw was simply amazing so I decided to buy the DVD. My husband, brother, and I saw it last night and were blown away. It is loosely based on a true story and it is very sad at the end. In fact, there are some similarities to Avatar since it pits peaceful people against greedy, evil ones. The priests in this film side with the Guarani. Its a beautiful film and I was misty eyed at the end of it.

What are your thoughts?

[txen]

Never heard of it. On you recommendation I'll have to check it out.

[ZenitYerkes]

Oh yes, heck I loved that movie too When I thought on an hypothetical situation (I don't know why I did) in which I tried to explain Avatar to a 19th century person, the Guaranitic War popped out.

And also, it's one of the reasons why I love the full "devotion to the people" attitude Jesuits have.

[rapunzel77]

Yes, I was struck by the love the Jesuits had for them. So much so that they were willing to die with them. Its so sad. It also shows what happens when politics and greed get in the way. Its similar to Avatar since it shows a group of people who are fighting for their home and their faith against evil people. In fact, what makes it worse is that the Spanish and the Portuguese claimed to be Christian but they didn't act like it.

It also brings up the question of love and which manifestation of it is the best. Who was right: Fr. Gabriel or Mendoza? Its a beautiful movie and thought provoking at the same time. The scenery is breathtaking as well .

[Woodsprite]

Mmm... I'd rather not reveal my full thoughts on it; I'll just leave it at "I didn't like it."

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Mmm... I'd rather not reveal my full thoughts on it; I'll just leave it at "I didn't like it."

I'm curious..... It could lead to a good discussion...

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

I'm curious..... It could lead to a good discussion...

Mmm... no, it'd lead to a bit more than that. I've had some bad bouts with Catholics before, and I'm seriously trying not to repeat the same debates again. They all led to flame wars even when I tried to be civil; the other side always took it the wrong way...

[rapunzel77]

Originally Posted by Woodsprite

Mmm... no, it'd lead to a bit more than that. I've had some bad bouts with Catholics before, and I'm seriously trying not to repeat the same debates again. They all led to flame wars even when I tried to be civil; the other side always took it the wrong way...

I might not. I know the history of my church. I know that it wasn't always pretty. The cardinal sold out the missions to placate the crowns of Spain and Portugal which in hindsight was the wrong thing to do. Sadly, this has happened many times because the Church has humans in it. People who are only thinking of themselves and their jobs instead of doing the right thing. So, I might not take what you have to say in the wrong way. The movie has some thought provoking stuff in it, especially when it came to the decisions that Fr. Gabriel and Mendoza make. If you like, we could discuss this issue in a PM discussion?

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

I might not. I know the history of my church. I know that it wasn't always pretty. The cardinal sold out the missions to placate the crowns of Spain and Portugal which in hindsight was the wrong thing to do. Sadly, this has happened many times because the Church has humans in it. People who are only thinking of themselves and their jobs instead of doing the right thing. So, I might not take what you have to say in the wrong way. The movie has some thought provoking stuff in it, especially when it came to the decisions that Fr. Gabriel and Mendoza make. If you like, we could discuss this issue in a PM discussion?

...Nah, we can discuss it here.

I just... I pretty much disagree with every Catholic teaching that's exclusive to the Catholic Church, to the point of hating it. Many people time and again have attributed me to hating actual Catholics with this, when I don't. I'm not against Catholics. I love Catholics. I'm just against the church's teachings, and I'm not referring to past history, I mean current teachings in the church. I want to make this clear, because everyone I debated before said I hated Catholics, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

With "The Mission", I was psyched to see it when I checked it out from the library. I heard Morricone's score was fantastic, the acting was superb, the story was brilliant, and the emotion was tear-jerking. Then, once the movie ended...

I'm in strong opposition to the Jesuits. I've read countless accounts and reports of what the Jesuits have done for the Pope, and the list of their horrible deeds is shocking. So when I see a movie that makes them out to be these wonderful, heartfelt people who love the Lord and contribute charitably to society in all respects, I think, "What about when they..." so on and so on. The Jesuits, as much as I've read about them, are far from "godly".

Then there were all the different references to how Rodrigo could absolve his sins by simply carrying a load over a vast distance, when that's totally against what the Bible teaches: you can't absolve yourself by simple, mortal works, and that's what Father Gabriel taught.

Then there was the nudity. I understand, it was tribal, natural, and innocent, but the depiction of child nudity isn't exactly my taste for something shown on screen. If you've seen "The Last Butterfly" you'll understand my stance. It was unnecessary, and a complete turn-off for me.

Then there was Morricone's score. His score for this movie was what me me lose respect of his composing ability. His music was beautiful, but out of touch. His cues of joyful, triumphant choirs when the Catholics get slaughtered just didn't work. They're losing the final battle and the music is happy? Then there were points he used native drums and horns to represent the Spanish Mission Headquarters. ...? It was all just confusing and out of place. Nice themes, bad scoring. The same is very apparent when you listen to his score for "The Untouchables". Same nonplussed, disconnected music that doesn't fit what's going on on-screen (although I loved that movie).

The ending was just too depressing for those who'd care, but for me (who wasn't particularly in favor of the Jesuits) in the end I just thought, "Whatever". I wasn't moved. Just show a naked girl run to a bunch of other naked kids and that's the end. I mean... eh. Not my kind of movie.


...Anyway, that's what I thought. I thought the acting was fantastic and very emotional, but that's about all I found appealing.

[rapunzel77]

I respect your opinion. I differ in it. Probably due to the fact I am Catholic. I was wondering if you hate the actual Catholic teachings or what you perceive to be Catholic teachings? Doing penance for sin is a teaching that is greatly misunderstood. We believe that you are absolved of them when you confess them with true contrition but that there are still consequences due to the sin..aka..penance. That is what Mendoza was doing. He was already absolved in that he had confessed the sin but there is still a price to pay. This is one of the points where we differ as Catholics and protestants.

The nudity I don't honestly have a problem with. If you have seen any National Geographic specials on various African, South American, etc tribes you will see nudity even if they are children. That was the context in which it was shown and certainly not meant to be "sexual" in any way. I guess I can see if someone might have a problem with that though.

As for as the Jesuits. They have had a good and a bad history. The Jesuits depicted in the movie were good. However, at the time there were others that were doing stuff that was wrong. I don't know if you know this but about 20 years after the events in the Mission, the Jesuit order was disbanded. Later on it was reinstated but it was never the same afterward. Today, there are very few good Jesuits left.

Anyway, I respect your opinion. My mother has probably the same view of the Catholic Church and her teachings. I wonder if you have ever read what our teachings are, from the Catechism, etc. It might help at least to dispel some misconceptions.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

I respect your opinion. I differ in it. Probably due to the fact I am Catholic.

Lol, you think?

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

I was wondering if you hate the actual Catholic teachings or what you perceive to be Catholic teachings?

It's the actual teachings. And no, I haven't read people like Boettner or Chick to get any information (good God no). I read through the Catechism at least twice, as well as other teachings in other various sources (pro-Catholic). I just hate how the church asserts that its way is the only way or else you'll burn. I'm not talking about ancient history, I mean quotes like,

"It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved."

(Gregory XVI referring to Mary)

Not very recent, I understand, but not much has changed with John Paul II or any books out these days. I've debated so harshly about this before and I really just don't want to get into it again. I understand your beliefs, I think you're wrong, but I don't care. You're still my sister in Christ; that's enough for me.

It's just... this one bout with a guy and a gal who both believed that Mary wasn't a factor in prayer that was essential to the Catholic doctrine. Then I showed them a whole bunch of quotes from the Catechism and other major saints and teachers who said otherwise... let's just say it was an ugly exchange.

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

Doing penance for sin is a teaching that is greatly misunderstood. We believe that you are absolved of them when you confess them with true contrition but that there are still consequences due to the sin..aka..penance. That is what Mendoza was doing. He was already absolved in that he had confessed the sin but there is still a price to pay. This is one of the points where we differ as Catholics and protestants.

See, here's the thing: the Bible doesn't say this. There is no work or deed you can do in death or life that can pay the price of sin. That's Christ's job.

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

The nudity I don't honestly have a problem with. If you have seen any National Geographic specials on various African, South American, etc tribes you will see nudity even if they are children. That was the context in which it was shown and certainly not meant to be "sexual" in any way. I guess I can see if someone might have a problem with that though.

Yes I understand all about the innocence of it all. I know all about NatGeo and even the Discovery Channel (late at night) showed nudity, and that was on cable! But it's child nudity. I just thought it unnecessary.

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

As for as the Jesuits. They have had a good and a bad history. The Jesuits depicted in the movie were good. However, at the time there were others that were doing stuff that was wrong. I don't know if you know this but about 20 years after the events in the Mission, the Jesuit order was disbanded. Later on it was reinstated but it was never the same afterward. Today, there are very few good Jesuits left.

Well... ok then. No comment.


I've had my discussions with Catholics, and frankly I'm done. I just don't want to go through it again. I'm rather for discussion about C. S. Lewis and... stuff. For instance, I wrote an essay about how I don't think his "Christianity" is really Biblical, and how he thought Buddhists could go to heaven.

[rapunzel77]

Woodsprite, I think this discussion has gone very far off topic, lol . I would like to speak about the rest of my thoughts concerning your latest post in a PM. Then we will be done with the Catholic vs. Prot. discussion.

[Woodsprite]

Originally Posted by rapunzel77

Woodsprite, I think this discussion has gone very far off topic, lol . I would like to speak about the rest of my thoughts concerning your latest post in a PM. Then we will be done with the Catholic vs. Prot. discussion.

Lol, yes, I'm reeaaaally uncomfortable discussing it all, anyways. I'm glad you enjoyed the movie.

[neytirifanboy]

The Mission is a very interesting and tragic movie with a big hitting cast. I'm not sure the religious elements are that important, at least to me. The decision to attack the natives was more to do with greed and politics rather than religion. But it does show the sort of things that happened during the colonial period, and still do happen, when one people subjugates another.

The movie is also a great reference to counter the critics who say that Avatar would have been more original if the ending was sad. Because we can always say that this was alread done in the Mission, and so a sad enbding resultiung in the defeat of the Na'vi would not have been original at all.

I may even watch it again.